[meteorite-list] Ensisheim TKW
From: harlan trammell <skyrox_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:53:32 2004 Message-ID: <F153rb5x72dK8uwEJDx00012a55_at_hotmail.com> <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <P>now THAT is the kind of response i was looking for! thank you very much. would like excerpts from the above to use in local news story i'm doing on meteorite and indian artifact frauds if possible. i have found that in artifacts, most crooks go straight for the wallet and don't mess around w/ the cheap stuff and fake high -dollar paleos. i figured ensisheim would be the same. if anyone knows of commonly faked or intentionally misrepresented meteorites found anywhere ( web, flea market, ebay show,etc.) or if anyone has been burned, i would like to know. thanks again for such an organized response.<BR><BR></P></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV>>From: Zelimir Gabelica <Z.GABELICA_at_UHA.FR> <DIV></DIV>>To: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com <DIV></DIV>>Subject: [meteorite-list] Ensisheim TKW <DIV></DIV>>Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 00:42:48 +0100 <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>Hi Anne, Joseph, Charlie, Eric, Steven, Julien, Thomas, Russ and list, <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>I wrote a similar message a few days ago but it appears (at least to me) <DIV></DIV>>that it was not dispatched. I am trying again today but with much more updates. <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>Many thanks to all of you who started to report the amount of Ensisheim <DIV></DIV>>meteorite that is resting in your collections. <DIV></DIV>> I especially appreciate when you tell me the source. The fact that, for <DIV></DIV>>example, Eric's piece comes from the Vatican collection and was before in <DIV></DIV>>that of the Marquis de Mauroy, is a nice story and a very interesting <DIV></DIV>>filliation. <DIV></DIV>>Knowing the former owners could perhaps soon result in a huge cobweb but <DIV></DIV>>this could also possibly help me in resolving many cross cuts and try to <DIV></DIV>>perhaps build one day a 510 years old family tree of the metorite. Nothing <DIV></DIV>>to loose to try. <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>I was also impressed by the weight of the part slice owned by Joseph <DIV></DIV>>Murakami. 45 grams would put him close to the top of the "hit parade" of the <DIV></DIV>>meteorite lucky owners (excluding perhaps official museums that are by no <DIV></DIV>>means far on top). <DIV></DIV>> But so far, as the compilation of even tiny fragments can proove <DIV></DIV>>significant for the big total, may I suggest Joseph weighs his slice more <DIV></DIV>>accurately as every further fraction of gram is significant for us (and for <DIV></DIV>>him good to know). The milligrams of Charlie's or Steve's pieces mentioned <DIV></DIV>>for their accurately weighed pieces are significant to us as well and so is <DIV></DIV>>the 0.22 g fragment reported by Julien. Small gulches make big rivers. <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>I also had in mind compiling the weights of Ensisheim meteorites owned by <DIV></DIV>>some official institutions and I'd appreciate curtators of these institutes <DIV></DIV>>or owners of the related private collections bring me their weights, <DIV></DIV>>corrections and/or additions. <DIV></DIV>> I was ready to start the official contacts but, in the meantime, Russ <DIV></DIV>>Kempton provided me with an invaluable list of repositories and private <DIV></DIV>>collection weights coming from his database. <DIV></DIV>>I am very grateful to him, as his list is a compilation of several data <DIV></DIV>>bases, probably recently updated. As many official data, it reflects only <DIV></DIV>>reported weights. <DIV></DIV>>At that stage, it is perhaps interesting to compare his data with those <DIV></DIV>>officially published in two other serious references, namely: <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>1) the BM. Catalog (M. Grady, Ed. 2000) and <DIV></DIV>>2) our own "Red Book" archiving the History of Ensisheim ("ENSISHEIM, Son <DIV></DIV>>Histoire à travers les Pierres", edited by the Confrérie St Georges des <DIV></DIV>>Gardiens de la Météorite d'Ensisheim, Sept. 1993, 133 pp, Table p 25 (World <DIV></DIV>>Distribution of the Ensisheim Meteorite Fragments, as compiled by J. <DIV></DIV>>Schmutzer, Hamburg, Gremany), data that are probably fragmentary and that <DIV></DIV>>need updating. <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>Here is the result of my preliminary comparison of these 3 series of data: <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>Place NEMS BM <DIV></DIV>>Catalog "Red Book" <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>Ensisheim, Musée de la Régence 54.51 kg 55.75kg <DIV></DIV>>55.75kg <DIV></DIV>>Paris, Mus. d'Hist. Nat 10.2 kg <DIV></DIV>>9.79 kg 9.79kg <DIV></DIV>>London; Nat. Hist. Mus. 911g <DIV></DIV>>911.2g 689g (!) <DIV></DIV>>Berlin, Mus. Naturk., Humboldt Univ. 906g 905g <DIV></DIV>>905g <DIV></DIV>>Vienna, Naturhist. Mus. 660g 588g <DIV></DIV>>(!) 660g <DIV></DIV>>Washington, U.S. Nat. Mus. 235g 258g <DIV></DIV>>(!) 458g (!!) <DIV></DIV>>Tübingen, Min.-Petrogr. Inst. 220g 316g <DIV></DIV>>(!) 316g (!) <DIV></DIV>>Uppsala Univ. Mus. - <DIV></DIV>>- 210g (?) <DIV></DIV>>Malta, Montana, Marlin Cilz Colln. - - <DIV></DIV>>504g (?) <DIV></DIV>>Tempe, Arizona State Univ. 155g 209g <DIV></DIV>>(!) 209.5g (!) <DIV></DIV>>Brussels, Inst. Roy. Sci. Mus. 191g - <DIV></DIV>>191.4g <DIV></DIV>>Zürich, ETH 189g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Modena, Min. Inst. Univ. 177g - <DIV></DIV>>177g <DIV></DIV>>Tucson, Haag Colln. 176g <DIV></DIV>>- 176g <DIV></DIV>>Cambridge, Univ.(GB) 133g - <DIV></DIV>>147g <DIV></DIV>>Chicago, Field Mus. Nat. Hist. 115g 109g <DIV></DIV>>110g <DIV></DIV>>New York, Amer. Mus. Nat. Hist. 112g 111g <DIV></DIV>>127g <DIV></DIV>>Göttingen, Min. Inst. Univ. 111g - <DIV></DIV>>158.6g (!) <DIV></DIV>>Karlsruhe Univ. - <DIV></DIV>>- 142.0g (?) <DIV></DIV>>Stockholm, Naturhist. Riksmus. 80g - <DIV></DIV>>51.0g (!) <DIV></DIV>>Troyes, Mus. d'Hist. Nat. 79.1 - <DIV></DIV>>82.0g (!) <DIV></DIV>>Calcutta, Mus. Geol. Surv. India 77g 77g <DIV></DIV>>76.9g <DIV></DIV>>Copenhagen, Univ. Geol. Mus. 77g - <DIV></DIV>>77.0g <DIV></DIV>>Rome, Vatican Observatory Colln. 77g 76g <DIV></DIV>>77g <DIV></DIV>>Basel, Naturhist. Mus. 76g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Strasbourg, Min. Mus 74g <DIV></DIV>>- 73.5g <DIV></DIV>>Dresden, Min. Geol. Mus. 73.4 <DIV></DIV>>- 73.0g <DIV></DIV>>Oxford, Univ. Mus. 71g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Kankakee, Illinois, J.Schwade Colln. 66g - <DIV></DIV>>105.0g (!) <DIV></DIV>>Buenos Aires, Asoc. H. Pampa 63g - <DIV></DIV>>- <DIV></DIV>>Prague, Nat. Mus. 51.5g <DIV></DIV>>- 51.5g <DIV></DIV>>Stockholm Mus. - <DIV></DIV>>- 51.0g <DIV></DIV>>Fischerhude, Koblitz Colln 42.3 <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Oeschgen, Beat Booz Colln. 38.5g - <DIV></DIV>>- <DIV></DIV>>Paris, École des Mines 38g <DIV></DIV>>- 38.0g <DIV></DIV>>Hamburg, Mus. Min.-Petrogr. Inst. 36.1g - <DIV></DIV>>27.5g <DIV></DIV>>Moscow, Acad. Sci. 34g <DIV></DIV>>33.52g 33.5g <DIV></DIV>>Turin Univ. - <DIV></DIV>>- 32.0g <DIV></DIV>>Harvard Univ. Min. Mus. - <DIV></DIV>>- 27.0 <DIV></DIV>>Massachusetts, NEMS Reference Col. 29.4g - <DIV></DIV>>- <DIV></DIV>>Freiberg, Sächs. Bergakad. 28g <DIV></DIV>>- 28g <DIV></DIV>>Hamburg Miner. Inst. Mus. - <DIV></DIV>>- 27.5g <DIV></DIV>>Bonn, Min. Mus. Univ. 26.9g <DIV></DIV>>- 22.2g <DIV></DIV>>Augsburg, D. Heinlein Colln. 26.5g <DIV></DIV>>- 26.5g <DIV></DIV>>Bern, Phys. Inst. Univ. 24.5g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Gifhorn, Bartoschewitz Colln. 24.3g <DIV></DIV>>24.3g 24.3g <DIV></DIV>>Aachen Mus. - <DIV></DIV>>- 24.0g <DIV></DIV>>Cambridge, Harvard Univ. 21g <DIV></DIV>>- 27.0g <DIV></DIV>>New Haven, Yale Univ., Peabody Mus. 18g - <DIV></DIV>>18.0g <DIV></DIV>>Budapest, Nat. Mus. 17.5g <DIV></DIV>>17.5g 17.5g <DIV></DIV>>Zürich, J.Nauber Colln. 14.3g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Greifswald, Geol. Dept. Univ. 14g <DIV></DIV>>- 14.0g <DIV></DIV>>Ottawa, Mus. Geol. Surv. Canada 14g <DIV></DIV>>15.1g 14.0g <DIV></DIV>>Braunschweig, Techn. Univ. 12.5g <DIV></DIV>>- 22.2g (!) <DIV></DIV>>Canberra, Austr. Nat. Univ. 12.5g <DIV></DIV>>- 12.5g <DIV></DIV>>Kazan, Geol.-Min. Mus., Ulyanov Univ. 11.7g - <DIV></DIV>>- <DIV></DIV>>Tallinn, Geol. Inst. Acad. Sci. 11g <DIV></DIV>>- 17.8g (!) <DIV></DIV>>Moscow, Geol. Mus., Acad. Rural Econ. 11g - <DIV></DIV>>- <DIV></DIV>>Belgrade Nat. Hist. Mus. - <DIV></DIV>>- 11.0g <DIV></DIV>>Cluj, Min. Mus. Univ. 10.5g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Münster, Min. Mus. Univ. 10g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Gotha, Mus. Naturk. 9g <DIV></DIV>>- 9.0g <DIV></DIV>>Schönenwerd, Bally-Prior Mus. 9g <DIV></DIV>>- 9.0g <DIV></DIV>>Los Angeles, Univ. of Calif. 8.8g <DIV></DIV>>8.8g 8.8g <DIV></DIV>>Grenchen, T.Stuedi Colln. 8.5g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Algonquin, DuPont Colln. 8.0g <DIV></DIV>>8g 7.8g <DIV></DIV>>Freiburg, Min.-Petrogr. Inst. 7g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Machecoul, Guibert Colln. 7g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Rome, Inst. Min. Mus. 7.0g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Bologna, Min. Mus. Univ. 6.5g <DIV></DIV>>- 6.5g <DIV></DIV>>Moscow, Min. Mus. Geol. Inst. 26g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Wroclaw, Dept. Min. Petrol., Univ. 6g <DIV></DIV>>- 5.0g <DIV></DIV>>Heidelberg, Min. Inst. Univ. 5.9g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Wroclaw Univ. - <DIV></DIV>>- 5.0g <DIV></DIV>>Philadelphia Acad. Sci. - <DIV></DIV>>- 4.9g <DIV></DIV>>San Ramon, T.Toffoli Colln. 4.9g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Fort Worth, TCU., Monnig Colln. 4.3g <DIV></DIV>>8g (!) - <DIV></DIV>>Heidelberg, Max-Planck-Inst. 4g <DIV></DIV>>- 4.1g <DIV></DIV>>Helsinki, Geol. Mus. Univ. 4g <DIV></DIV>>- 4.0g <DIV></DIV>>Jena, Min. Inst. Univ. 4g <DIV></DIV>>- 4.0g <DIV></DIV>>St. Petersburg, Mining Mus. 4g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Stuttgart, Staatl. Mus. Naturk. 3.2g <DIV></DIV>>- 3.2g <DIV></DIV>>Bern, Naturhist. Mus. 3.1g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Paris, A.Carion Colln. 3.1g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Tokyo, NIPR 2.3g <DIV></DIV>>- 2.3g <DIV></DIV>>Weimar, Goethe Mus. [J.W.v.Goethe Coll.] 2g - <DIV></DIV>>2.0g <DIV></DIV>>Freiburg, J.Otto Colln 1.7g <DIV></DIV>>- 1.7g <DIV></DIV>>Bologna, Astron. Observatory 1.6g <DIV></DIV>>- 6.5g (!) <DIV></DIV>>Utrecht, Lab. Geofis. Geochem. 1.5g <DIV></DIV>>- 1.5g <DIV></DIV>>Liège, Univ. 1.4g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Stade, A.Seidel Colln. 0.8g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Gloggnitz, Franger Colln. 0.5g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>Leonding, Raab Colln. 0.3g <DIV></DIV>>- - <DIV></DIV>>----------------------------- <DIV></DIV>>And from the first answers to my call, from the list: <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>Honolulu (Hi), Joseph Murakami 45.??g <DIV></DIV>>Waldkirch (D), Renate & Michael Buckler 16.1g <DIV></DIV>>Oleye (B), Zelimir Gabelica Colln. 15.82g <DIV></DIV>>NEMS reserve about 9g <DIV></DIV>>......, Eric Olson Coll. 2.05g <DIV></DIV>>......, Thomas Webb Coll. 1.3885g <DIV></DIV>>......, Charlie Devine Coll. 1.346g <DIV></DIV>>......, Steven Drummond Coll. 1.342g <DIV></DIV>>......, Julien Courtois Coll. 0.22g <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>---------------- <DIV></DIV>>I did not made any total yet, for obvious reasons, essentially because <DIV></DIV>>nothing is complete and also because of some important discrepancies that <DIV></DIV>>appear from the 3 main compilations.The reasons for these discrepancies are <DIV></DIV>>various and I hope they will disappear progressively as my quest would <DIV></DIV>>progress. I also speculate that the values as compiled by Russ from recent <DIV></DIV>>data could be the most reliable so far, because the most recent. While the <DIV></DIV>>BM catalog is not complete by purpose, some data that appear in the "Red <DIV></DIV>>Book" are not on NEMS list. I'd appreciate Russel checking that point. <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>> It is also possible that the main weight held in some important museums was <DIV></DIV>>not checked accurately (Paris ?), as it was the case with the remaining <DIV></DIV>>piece held in Ensisheim. <DIV></DIV>>This latter must now be officially considered as 53.831 kg (see my preceding <DIV></DIV>>message). <DIV></DIV>>It is actually curious that, although this weight was only roughly estimated <DIV></DIV>>to be "about" 55 kg through ages, the officially reported weights from the <DIV></DIV>>above lists are quite accurate (54.51 kg and 55.75 kg). It should be funny <DIV></DIV>>to know who ever invented these numbres... <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>However, from a first glance of a rough total in this preliminary <DIV></DIV>>compilation, it appears (so far, in the beginning of this quest) that we are <DIV></DIV>>far from being atteining the missing mass (between the initial 127 kg and <DIV></DIV>>the today total preserved), suggesting that there are far more pieces to be <DIV></DIV>>found to match that difference. In other words, it appears that there should <DIV></DIV>>be less frauds (false Ensisheim pieces) offered on the web, than suspected <DIV></DIV>>by Harlan Trammell. <DIV></DIV>>We have some ideas here where such missing pieces could be or on how they <DIV></DIV>>disappeared with time. But this is another story that I may write later. <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>I am now looking to hearing from more of you, known, renown or unknown <DIV></DIV>>collectors and/or museum curators for your weight of your Ensisheim <DIV></DIV>>meteorite(s) or your comments on these data that I hope you are able to <DIV></DIV>>correct or complete. <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>I warmly thank everybody in advance for that and for keeping me (and the <DIV></DIV>>list) in close touch. I will do the same by making the point from time to <DIV></DIV>>time, as per your suggestions. <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>All the best to all and happy hunting! <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>Zelimir <DIV></DIV>>****************************************************** <DIV></DIV>>Prof. Zelimir Gabelica <DIV></DIV>>Groupe Sécurité et Ecologie Chimiques (GSEC) - ENSCMu <DIV></DIV>>3, rue A. Werner <DIV></DIV>>F-68093 MULHOUSE Cedex, FRANCE <DIV></DIV>>Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94 <DIV></DIV>>FAX: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15 <DIV></DIV>>e-Mail: Z.Gabelica_at_uha.fr <DIV></DIV>>****************************************************** <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>______________________________________________ <DIV></DIV>>Meteorite-list mailing list <DIV></DIV>>Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com <DIV></DIV>>http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list <DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>MSN 8 with <a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMSEN/2019">e-mail virus protection service: </a> 2 months FREE*</html> Received on Tue 03 Dec 2002 10:33:46 AM PST |
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