[meteorite-list] Re: facing history ( was Hunting scams)

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From: Michel <Michel_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:44:35 2004
Message-ID: <000a01c0a282$eaefb4c0$0100a8c0_at_nwc.fr>

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History will rember that Mike Farmer as salshed into slices a wondefull =
unique oriented lunar meteorite, that Franco was not happy with that =
fact and expressed it.

History will also remember that the Francos have found Dag 565 a =
primitive achondrite still unclassiifed (analysis started in 1998) that =
might prove something for both ureilites and winonaites parent bodies.

And perhaps you Mike Framer will rember when I expalined how emotionnal =
was for both of us to find a meteorite from the ground. Emotion, heard =
of it ?

Best wishes

Michel FRANCO
100 Chemin des Camp=E8nes
74400 CHAMONIX - FRANCE
 ----- Message d'origine -----=20
 De : Mike Farmer=20
 =C0 : Michel Franco=20
 Cc : MeteorHntr_at_aol.com ; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com=20
 Envoy=E9 : jeudi 1 mars 2001 16:39
 Objet : Hunting scams=20

 Why would you Care? How would you know who I bought my rock from if =
you never bought any meteorites in Morocco? Mr. Franco, it seems that =
you know the dealers but you never deal with them?=20
 Don't worry about how I pay for my trips, is it your business? you say =
you only find, but I have a very hard tome believing that. All I keep =
hearing from you and others is that you only search, ALL I keep hearing =
from the Moroccans is that the "Hunters" buy, =
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM=20
 And I keep getting shit from the French (several different people) =
that I should not go to Morocco, that it is "their territory" If none of =
you buy, then it matters not if I buy there. You may believe in the =
inherent goodness of mankind, I believe what I see, and that is the some =
serious BULLSHIT has been passed of to us all in the last 4 years by =
some people. What do the Moroccans have to gain or lose by telling us =
that the French and some Germans buy from them? Why do you think that =
they make this up. And when I say French, it is simply to avoid saying =
the long list of names that I have who buy there. Just tell me why they =
might spout off all of these names, if it is not true. Why do you think =
that they lie? What do they gain, do you think I pay more if they tell =
me that many French "Hunters" buy barrels of meteorites?=20
 As far as my stone goes, rest assured that proper payment has been and =
is still under way for those who helped us. We paid dearly for a stone =
which we did not know the type. When I bought items that turned out to =
be non meteoritic, I was told "Too bad" this is business" Take your =
chance. Well, we did with this one, and we hit pay dirt. So they took =
their chance, they sold it for over 10 to 20 YEARS salary for an average =
Moroccan, and they were quite happy,=20
 now I am happy too. Why can't you be, instead of getting pissed and =
giving me shit.=20
 It seems that the only people who are not happy for us are A, the =
FRENCH HUNTERS, why? If they are hunters, then they do not buy, this =
stone was bought, so it would not have fallen into their hands in the =
first place as they say that they DO NOT BUY. So I am seeing some =
interesting contradictions here, if you don't buy, and you only hunt, =
then you would NEVER have got this stone.=20
 Or is it that you hunt, and you also buy the RARE ONES?=20
 The plot thickens on the entire "Hunting thing".=20
 Does this make sense?=20
 I would like feedback from the list, if these people only hunt, why =
are they pissed that I BOUGHT a certain stone?=20
 Mike Farmer=20

 Michel Franco wrote:=20

 Farmer wrote<I do not doubt it, but after the Dar al Gani mars =
rocks, it would seem that some dishonesty was occuring there, popping =
out a new piece every few months, as though they did not recognize it =
from the start as the same damn thing.=20
 Mike Farmer > Seems that he should go in some easy places like DaG =
and prospect himself. he will certainly find all his meteorites on the =
same day. When some one see dishonest people everywhere, I feel =
unconfortable. I m a Rouseauist: mankind is good, with few exceptions, =
very few! I tried to explain one to Mike Farmer that Dag 476 and Dag 494 =
were not found by the same team. And that all other Dag SNC were found =
during separate expeditions.I never received any comment about that =
point. Mike you should go back yourself to the hunring field, and pick =
them up yourself without any backers for your trips. $10 per gram was =
great deal, I hope you have already sent a large reward to Ahmed Amouri. =
My two crusts. Michel FRANCO=20
 MeteorHntr_at_aol.com wrote:=20
 =20
 In a message dated 2/28/01 1:44:23 PM Central Standard Time, =
GShanos_at_aol.com=20
 writes:=20
 =20
 =20
 =20

 =20
 =20
 =20
 =20
 Dear List Members:=20

 What is the official word? Are all the Dhofar's 025, 026 an =
081 paired?=20
 Look forward to hearing from everyone.=20

 Sincerely=20
 Greg Shanos

 =20
 =20
 Hello Greg,=20

 I have both he 025 and the 026 for sale and there is nothing =
remotely similar=20
 to them.=20

 With the Dhofar specimens, there is honest reporting of all the =
details of=20
 the find; such as the date of find, exact longitude and latitude =
of the=20
 finds, accurate TKW info and the like. Also, these specimens =
have been found=20
 by professional meteorite hunters and not simply gathered by =
nomads and then=20
 run through a system of handlers before brought to market like =
most of the=20
 NWA specimens. This is not to be meant as a "slam" against the =
NWA's; I have=20
 sold a few NWA's myself and I will sell more in the future, it =
is simply a=20
 statement of fact.=20

 I think Mike Farmer has been the most open about explaining the =
state of=20
 meteorite affairs in Morocco. It is important to know however, =
the Dhofar=20
 situation is far from like that.=20

 While much of a meteorite's value should stand on what type of a =
meteorite it=20
 is, not based on the exact location where it was found; one very =
important=20
 consideration in determining a potential value is the Total =
Known Weight=20
 found. It might be easy to figure out that all (or at least =
most all) of the=20
 EH3 specimen found in the Sahara will (or should be) paired, it =
is next to=20
 impossible to know if your Saharan H5 specimen is one of a a =
thousand stones=20
 from one fall, or if it might be the entire mass of a fall. Or =
you might not=20
 know if next week a new fragment for the same fall of your new =
achondrite=20
 might increase the TKW by 10 fold.=20

 Thoughts to consider.=20

 As to the details of your specific question about pairing, you =
can find a lot=20
 of great information at Washington University's site here:=20

 http://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/moon_meteorites.html=20

 I hope this helps.=20

 Steve=20

 Steve Arnold

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>History will rember that Mike Farmer as salshed into =
slices a=20
wondefull unique oriented lunar meteorite, that Franco was not happy =
with that=20
fact and expressed it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>History will also remember that the Francos have =
found Dag 565=20
a primitive achondrite still unclassiifed (analysis started in 1998) =
that might=20
prove something for both ureilites and winonaites parent =
bodies.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And perhaps you Mike Framer will rember when I =
expalined how=20
emotionnal was for both of us to find a meteorite from the ground. =
Emotion,=20
heard of it ?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best wishes</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Michel FRANCO 100 Chemin des Camp=E8nes 74400 CHAMONIX - =
FRANCE</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
 <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Message d'origine ----- </DIV>
 <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black">De=20
 : <A href=3D"mailto:farmerm_at_concentric.net"=20
 title=3Dfarmerm_at_concentric.net>Mike Farmer</A> </DIV>
 <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">=C0 : <A=20
 href=3D"mailto:MICH-FRANCO_at_wanadoo.fr" =
title=3DMICH-FRANCO_at_wanadoo.fr>Michel=20
 Franco</A> </DIV>
 <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Cc : <A=20
 href=3D"mailto:MeteorHntr_at_aol.com"=20
 title=3DMeteorHntr_at_aol.com>MeteorHntr@aol.com</A> ; <A=20
 href=3D"mailto:meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com"=20
 =
title=3Dmeteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>meteorite-list@meteoritecentr=
al.com</A>=20
 </DIV>
 <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Envoy=E9 : jeudi 1 mars =
2001=20
 16:39</DIV>
 <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Objet : Hunting scams </DIV>
 <DIV> </DIV>Why would you Care? How would you know who I bought my =
rock=20
 from if you never bought any meteorites in Morocco? Mr. Franco, it =
seems that=20
 you know the dealers but you never deal with them? Don't worry =
about how I=20
 pay for my trips, is it your business? you say you only find, but I =
have a=20
 very hard tome believing that. All I keep hearing from you and others =
is that=20
 you only search, ALL I keep hearing from the Moroccans is that  =
the=20
 "Hunters"  buy, HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM =
 And I=20
 keep getting shit from the French (several different people) that I =
should not=20
 go to Morocco, that it is "their territory" If none of you buy, then =
it=20
 matters not if I buy there. You may believe in the inherent goodness =
of=20
 mankind, I believe what I see, and that is the some serious BULLSHIT =
has been=20
 passed of to us all in the last 4 years by some people. What do the =
Moroccans=20
 have to gain or lose by telling us that the French and some Germans =
buy from=20
 them? Why do you think that they make this up. And when I say French, =
it is=20
 simply to avoid saying the long list of names that I have who buy =
there. Just=20
 tell me why they might spout off all of these names, if it is not =
true. Why do=20
 you think that they lie? What do they gain, do you think I pay more if =
they=20
 tell me that many French "Hunters" buy barrels of meteorites?=20
 As far as my stone goes, rest assured that proper payment has been =
and is=20
 still under way for those who helped us. We paid dearly for a stone =
which we=20
 did not know the type. When I bought items that turned out to be non=20
 meteoritic, I was told "Too bad" this is business" Take your chance. =
Well, we=20
 did with this one, and we hit pay dirt. So they took their chance, =
they sold=20
 it for over 10 to 20 YEARS salary for an average Moroccan, and they =
were quite=20
 happy, now I am happy too. Why can't you be, instead of getting =
pissed and=20
 giving me shit. It seems that the only people who are not happy =
for us are=20
 A, the FRENCH HUNTERS, why? If they are hunters, then they do not buy, =
this=20
 stone was bought, so it would not have fallen into their hands in the =
first=20
 place as they say that they DO NOT BUY. So I am seeing some =
interesting=20
 contradictions here, if you don't buy, and you only hunt, then you =
would NEVER=20
 have got this stone. Or is it that you hunt, and you also buy the =
RARE=20
 ONES? The plot thickens on the entire "Hunting thing". Does =
this make=20
 sense? I would like feedback from the list, if these people only =
hunt, why=20
 are they pissed that I BOUGHT a certain stone? Mike Farmer=20
 Michel Franco wrote:=20
 <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">
 <STYLE></STYLE>
 Farmer wrote<I do not =
doubt it, but=20
 after the Dar al Gani mars rocks, it would seem that some dishonesty =
was=20
 occuring there, popping out a new piece every few months, as though =
they did=20
 not recognize it from the start as the same damn thing. =
 <FONT=20
 size=3D-1>Mike Farmer > Seems that he =
should go=20
 in some easy places like DaG and prospect himself. he will certainly =
find=20
 all his meteorites on the same day. When some one see dishonest =
people=20
 everywhere, I feel unconfortable. I m a Rouseauist: mankind is good, =
with=20
 few exceptions, very few! I tried to =
explain one=20
 to Mike Farmer that Dag 476 and Dag 494 were not found by the same =
team. And=20
 that all other Dag SNC were found during separate =
expeditions.<FONT=20
 size=3D-1>I never received any comment about that =
point. <FONT=20
 size=3D-1>Mike you should go back yourself to the hunring field, and =
pick them=20
 up yourself without any backers for your trips. $10 per gram was =
great deal,=20
 I hope you have already sent a large reward to Ahmed=20
 Amouri. My two crusts. Michel FRANCO=20
 <BLOCKQUOTE=20
 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: =
0px">   <A=20
 href=3D"mailto:MeteorHntr_at_aol.com">MeteorHntr@aol.com</A> wrote:=20
 <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE"> =20
 In a message =
dated 2/28/01=20
 1:44:23 PM Central Standard Time, GShanos_at_aol.com=20
 writes:=20
      =20
 <BLOCKQUOTE=20
 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
 TYPE=3D"CITE">      =20
 Dear List=20
 Members:=20
 What is the =
official=20
 word?  Are all the Dhofar's 025, 026 an 081 =
paired?=20
 Look forward =
to hearing=20
 from everyone.=20
 Sincerely=20
 Greg=20
 Shanos</BLOCKQUOTE>    =20
 Hello=20
 Greg,=20
 I =
have both he 025=20
 and the 026 for sale and there is nothing remotely=20
 similar <FONT=20
 color=3D#000000>to them.=20
 With =
the Dhofar=20
 specimens, there is honest reporting of all the details=20
 of <FONT=20
 size=3D-1>the find; such as the date of find, exact longitude =
and latitude=20
 of the <FONT=20
 color=3D#000000>finds, accurate TKW info and the =
like. =20
 Also, these specimens have been found =
 <FONT=20
 face=3DArial>by =
professional meteorite=20
 hunters and not simply gathered by nomads and =
then=20
 run =
through a=20
 system of handlers before brought to market like most of=20
 the <FONT=20
 size=3D-1>NWA specimens.  This is not to be meant as a =
"slam" against=20
 the NWA's; I have <FONT=20
 color=3D#000000>sold a few NWA's myself and I =
will sell more=20
 in the future, it is simply a <FONT=20
 face=3DArial>statement of=20
 fact.=20
 I =
think Mike=20
 Farmer has been the most open about explaining the state=20
 of <FONT=20
 size=3D-1>meteorite affairs in Morocco.  It is important to =
know=20
 however, the Dhofar <FONT=20
 color=3D#000000>situation is far from like=20
 that.=20
 While much of a=20
 meteorite's value should stand on what type of a meteorite=20
 it <FONT=20
 size=3D-1>is, not based on the exact location where it was =
found; one very=20
 important <FONT=20
 color=3D#000000>consideration in determining a =
potential=20
 value is the Total Known Weight <FONT=20
 face=3DArial>found.  =
It might be=20
 easy to figure out that all (or at least most all) of=20
 the <FONT=20
 size=3D-1>EH3 specimen found in the Sahara will (or should be) =
paired, it=20
 is next to <FONT=20
 color=3D#000000>impossible to know if your =
Saharan H5=20
 specimen is one of a a thousand stones =
 <FONT=20
 face=3DArial>from one =
fall, or if it=20
 might be the entire mass of a fall.  Or you might=20
 not <FONT=20
 size=3D-1>know if next week a new fragment for the same fall of =
your new=20
 achondrite <FONT=20
 color=3D#000000>might increase the TKW by 10=20
 fold.=20
 Thoughts to=20
 consider.=20
 As =
to the details=20
 of your specific question about pairing, you can find a=20
 lot <FONT=20
 size=3D-1>of great information at Washington University's site=20
 here:=20
 <A=20
 =
href=3D"http://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/moon_meteorites.html">http:=
//epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/moon_meteorites.html</A></=
FONT>=20

 I =
hope this=20
 helps.=20
 <FONT=20
 size=3D-1>Steve=20
 Steve=20
 =
Arnold</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></B=
LOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Received on Thu 01 Mar 2001 02:07:44 PM PST

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