[meteorite-list] Meteorite Fraud...A good story....

From: Michael Cottingham <mikewren_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:42:05 2004
Message-ID: <017901c0865e$26bad480$c7daead8_at_hppav>

Hello,

Great points made! Thanks for a different
perspective.

I really like your idea about all of us helping
to control these "pesky" little critters.

Your idea about polishing or windowing on these
unclassified stones when you get some is good.
You are also right....that those of us who
import them can't do all of that work. It just
is way too much.

I wasn't thinking of you or anyone else in
particular when I wrote that email, but was trying
to instill and provoke thought forms.

Thought forms are to me ideas that are started as
thought, but have the ability to manifest into real
objects or plans. Something we need here.

Thanks & Best Wishes

Michael


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matson, Robert" <ROBERT.D.MATSON_at_saic.com>
To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 4:08 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Fraud...A good story....


> Hi Michael and list,
>
> Great story about the irons in Erfoud! I guess turnabout
> is fair play! I'll know we've come full circle when someone
> takes a piece of Willamette to Argentina and tries to pass
> it off as a Campo! <chuckle>
>
> > But it seems to me THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE MADE THE NON LOCATION
> > OF NWA METEORITES SUCH AN ISSUE HAVE CREATED THIS IN THE
> > FIRST PLACE.
>
> I don't think you can place blame on a small group of individuals
> for the market price disparity between meteorites with a known
> find location and those recovered from a "general area". The
> MARKET has decided that all other things being equal (type,
> shock, weathering, aesthetics, TKW, etc.) a meteorite from a
> specific location is worth more. Whether that is logical or
> not means NOTHING. An observed fall is worth more than a fresh
> find that no one observed, even if that observed fall is not
> located and recovered for several years. People place some
> value on circumstances.
>
> > I mean you whine about NWA Meteorites because they don't have a location
> > and then you worry about the fact that someone might want to give them
> one.
>
> I've never whined about NWAs -- they are just as special to
> me as any of my other meteorites. But you're damned right I
> worry about someone relocating uncut Moroccans because that
> potentially impacts the credibility of the field work I DO!
> Whether people are aware of it or not, there's more to
> meteorites than the meteorites themselves. Where they are
> found and in what condition can reveal clues about the historical
> geology of a region, deflation rates, and even provide data
> on global meteorite fall rates. This last part is valuable
> astronomical data; meteorite relocation to a study area has
> just as damaging an effect as the failure to report a find
> in that area.
>
> > IT IS A FACT! YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE IT. NWA METEORITES DO NOT
> > HAVE A KNOWN LOCATION. THE MOROCCAN's and others will have hundreds of
> > kilos for sale in Tucson. There are hundreds of more kilos in Morocco
and
> you will
> > never DOCUMENT ALL. NEVER.
>
> Everyone accepts that.
> >
> > Now if you just accept this fact that they (NWA) meteorites don't have
> locations
> > then maybe you can avert a problem before it even begins.
>
> That's all I want to do. Help avert a problem.
>
> > Stop sprouting so much hate against a single group of meteorites and
maybe
> > people will never even think of relocating them.
>
> People don't "hate" NWAs. On the contrary, I think it's great
> that you and Mike Farmer (and others) are getting so many of
> the Moroccan meteorites named and classified. That's extremely
> commendable. But as you correctly pointed out, there's just
> too much material for it all to get named, let alone classified.
> It's this unnamed, uncut, unclassified material that has the
> potential to threaten the integrity of my work.
>
> As for people "never even thinking of relocating them," I think
> you give "people" too much credit. Anyone who is willing to
> put greed ahead of science will not have any reservations
> about trying to profit from the Moroccan price disparity.
> Ask yourself a question -- how much will people pay for the
> first meteorite found in Delaware? A helluva lot more than
> 25 cents a gram, that much you can be sure.
>
> > Those who get caught relocating these meteorites will pay a high and
dear
> price.
> > Do not worry about that. When caught......I say when, because they will
> get
> > caught.
>
> Maybe, maybe not. If labs aren't specifically looking for
> poseurs, they aren't likely to detect them. UCLA certainly
> isn't worrying themselves over it since transports would
> never represent more than an insignificant fraction of the
> specimens they classify.
>
> > There are many people who have the experience to detect such events
> > and there is no way they really could get away with it .....for long!
>
> Yes, there are people who specialize in meteorite forensics --
> Alan mentioned a guy at JSC who does just that. But they
> aren't the ones doing the classifying. Transported meteorites
> are nothing new -- look up Panamint Range, CA for instance,
> which is very likely a transported Canyon Diablo. Cases like
> these are caught because they match previously classified
> meteorites. In the case of an unclassified Moroccan meteorite,
> however, there may not be another to match it to.
>
> Michael Blood worries about a self-fulfilling prophecy. This
> is a cop-out, in my opinion. People are dumb, but not that
> dumb. We've all thought of this, and you can be sure that
> plenty of ne'er-do-wells didn't need our help putting together
> this scenario. Sticking our heads in the sand and just hoping
> and praying that if we don't talk about it, it won't happen,
> is naive and irresponsible.
>
> I wouldn't have even brought up the subject if the problem
> didn't have a solution -- that would be even more irresponsible.
> The fact is there ARE things that can be done to discourage
> attempts at transport. And some of these are already being
> done -- Mike Farmer and Michael Cottingham have been very
> conscientious in this regard. But I can't expect them to
> cut or window every little fragment they get in their
> multi-hundred kilo purchases in Erfoud -- it would take
> forever! That's where us second hand buyers come in.
> Window your uncut purchases if you intend to resell them!
> Think of it has having The Club on your car: it won't
> prevent someone who is hell-bent on theft (or fraud), but
> it will deter all but the most determined.
>
> Best wishes,
> Rob
>
>
>
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Received on Wed 24 Jan 2001 06:34:06 PM PST