[meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

From: cdtucson at cox.net <*cdtucson_at_meteoritecentral.com*> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 17:35:45 -0500 Message-ID: <20160120173545.YG5MV.221106.imail_at_fed1rmwml108> · cdtucson_at_meteoritecentral.com

--
Love & Life
---- Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote: 
> Don't shoot the messenger.  I am opposed to this overregulation myself.  I 
> am not a lawyer so you will have to obtain specific information directly 
> from the source.  In this case, the U.S. Department of the Interior.  I am 
> just trying to prevent field collectors from running into trouble instead of 
> sticking my head in sand and ignoring that these rules/regulations/laws 
> exist.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikestang at gmail.com>
> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
> 
> 
> > Then cite me title and section of the CFR that deals with meteorites.
> >
> > Michael in so. Cal.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
> > <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> >> Federal rules and regulations are laws.
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
> >> <mikestang at gmail.com>
> >> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
> >> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:04 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Not a law.  Thank you.
> >>>
> >>> -Michael in so. Cal.
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
> >>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Exact wording from BLM website:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn
> >>>> details
> >>>> for their area of interest.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or 
> >>>> sold?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
> >>>> individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use. 
> >>>> A
> >>>> permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be
> >>>> collected,
> >>>> including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of
> >>>> fair
> >>>> market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mulgrew"
> >>>> <mikestang at gmail.com>
> >>>> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
> >>>> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Adam,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
> >>>>> section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -Michael in so. Cal.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
> >>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land 
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>> to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump,
> >>>>>> Nevada
> >>>>>> area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the 
> >>>>>> field
> >>>>>> after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This 
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>> after
> >>>>>> the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch 
> >>>>>> us
> >>>>>> with
> >>>>>> leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you
> >>>>>> sold?"
> >>>>>> and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they 
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>> no
> >>>>>> commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the 
> >>>>>> real
> >>>>>> value is scientific.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Future generations may remember our generation as the one that 
> >>>>>> screwed
> >>>>>> everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
> >>>>>> attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers. 
> >>>>>> The
> >>>>>> Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Adam
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mulgrew"
> >>>>>> <mikestang at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
> >>>>>> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
> >>>>>> U.S.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
> >>>>>> "BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - 
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>> series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
> >>>>>> they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
> >>>>>> to even make it as far as I did.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% 
> >>>>>> be
> >>>>>> found on private property.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -Michael in so. Cal.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
> >>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but 
> >>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>> still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not
> >>>>>>> been
> >>>>>>> hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as 
> >>>>>>> Met-Men.
> >>>>>>> Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter
> >>>>>>> eggs
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to
> >>>>>>> protect
> >>>>>>> people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
> >>>>>>> limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North 
> >>>>>>> American
> >>>>>>> Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" 
> >>>>>>> <thetoprok at aol.com>
> >>>>>>> To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>;
> >>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
> >>>>>>> U.S.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Adam,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
> >>>>>>> whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and 
> >>>>>>> without
> >>>>>>> actual
> >>>>>>> charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened
> >>>>>>> during,
> >>>>>>> or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on 
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those
> >>>>>>> same
> >>>>>>> officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to
> >>>>>>> bigger
> >>>>>>> fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding
> >>>>>>> American
> >>>>>>> meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take 
> >>>>>>> long
> >>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>> them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough
> >>>>>>> money to
> >>>>>>> merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole 
> >>>>>>> other
> >>>>>>> topic.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have
> >>>>>>> hard
> >>>>>>> core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of
> >>>>>>> hours
> >>>>>>> per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into 
> >>>>>>> contact
> >>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>> was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. 
> >>>>>>> Some
> >>>>>>> day
> >>>>>>> if we ever  get together we can share some stories.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a
> >>>>>>> point.
> >>>>>>> You can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick 
> >>>>>>> up
> >>>>>>> fossils all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will
> >>>>>>> hold
> >>>>>>> true for meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first
> >>>>>>> North
> >>>>>>> American Lunar.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. 
> >>>>>>> : )
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>>>> Larry Atkins
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> IMCA # 1941
> >>>>>>> Ebay alienrockfarm
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
> >>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> >>>>>>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
> >>>>>>> U.S.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I wish what you said was true.  Our entire group was hassled around
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California.  Eight of our team
> >>>>>>> members
> >>>>>>> were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been
> >>>>>>> hassled
> >>>>>>> as well.  Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they 
> >>>>>>> know
> >>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>> is being sold on eBay.  We were told that some public land is
> >>>>>>> designated
> >>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>> heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely
> >>>>>>> off
> >>>>>>> limits while metal detectors cannot be used in other areas.  I 
> >>>>>>> cannot
> >>>>>>> find
> >>>>>>> any source which lists these areas so an agent can determine this in
> >>>>>>> field
> >>>>>>> so be careful.  Just ask artifact and fossils hunters what happened
> >>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>> their once-fine avocation including the fellow who found "Sue" the
> >>>>>>> dinosaur.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" 
> >>>>>>> <thetoprok at aol.com>
> >>>>>>> To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>;
> >>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:38 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
> >>>>>>> U.S.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Adam, All,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering 
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> laws
> >>>>>>> meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to
> >>>>>>> nothing,
> >>>>>>> ask Michael Mulgrew how his application went. It's a joke. The 
> >>>>>>> people
> >>>>>>> enforcing the laws of our wild lands have better things to do than
> >>>>>>> hassle
> >>>>>>> rock hounds. In my sixteen years of hunting and occasional selling
> >>>>>>> I've
> >>>>>>> never heard of, or experienced trouble. In fact, I've encountered 
> >>>>>>> law
> >>>>>>> enforcement of all types while in the field, told them exactly what 
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>> doing, talked money and everything, and all they say is "Good luck!
> >>>>>>> Have
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> great day!"
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sell your rocks if you want, business as usual.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>>>> Larry Atkins
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> IMCA # 1941
> >>>>>>> Ebay alienrockfarm
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
> >>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> >>>>>>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 3:38 pm
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
> >>>>>>> U.S.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I agree with everything you stated with the exception of response 2
> >>>>>>> where
> >>>>>>> you state private citizens can profit from meteorite finds here in 
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> United States.  It is against federal and most state laws to use
> >>>>>>> meteorites
> >>>>>>> found on public land for commercial purposes meaning that the finder
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>> allowed to sell anything they find.  Private citizen are prohibited
> >>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>> making a profit without a permit which will never be issued.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the
> >>>>>>> recovery
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> meteorites,
> >>>>>>> would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered
> >>>>>>> material
> >>>>>>> from a
> >>>>>>> new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly
> >>>>>>> follows
> >>>>>>> that the total
> >>>>>>> mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's 
> >>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of 
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> fall
> >>>>>>> is obviously
> >>>>>>> more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
> >>>>>>> terrestrial
> >>>>>>> weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived
> >>>>>>> radioisotopes
> >>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>> decayed below the threshold of detectability.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matson, Rob D. via 
> >>>>>>> Meteorite-list"
> >>>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> >>>>>>> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 12:12 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Ian,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Since you brought up the Creston fall, presumably as a comparison
> >>>>>>> example
> >>>>>>> against
> >>>>>>> current Australian state policies, I feel some counter-commentary is
> >>>>>>> appropriate.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Creston is a example of where things went a bit pair shaped in my
> >>>>>>>> mind
> >>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>> science.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In my opinion, Creston was really no stranger than Sutter's Mill,
> >>>>>>> Novato,
> >>>>>>> Battle Mountain,
> >>>>>>> Mifflin or Ash Creek. Science has been well served by all of these
> >>>>>>> falls.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> USA had a private network of cameras setup that captured the
> >>>>>>>> fireball,
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> private individual
> >>>>>>>> and some others extracted that meteorite, the first piece(s) was 
> >>>>>>>> then
> >>>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>> sold. Finally it
> >>>>>>>> was sold for a ridiculous price. Not illegal or immoral......just 
> >>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>> ideal
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think what you are getting at is that only a small fraction of 
> >>>>>>> each
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> these falls made
> >>>>>>> it into the hands of researchers. There are a couple points to
> >>>>>>> consider:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (1) How much material do researchers really need to extract the
> >>>>>>> majority
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> pertinent
> >>>>>>> scientific data from a fall? Sure, if you had infinite time you'd 
> >>>>>>> love
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> have all of it since
> >>>>>>> the individual meteorites from a fall are not necessarily 
> >>>>>>> homogenous.
> >>>>>>> (Case
> >>>>>>> in point:
> >>>>>>> Almahata Sitta). But balanced against this is the question of how 
> >>>>>>> much
> >>>>>>> more
> >>>>>>> you're
> >>>>>>> going to learn by analyzing all of the stones from an L6 fall.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the
> >>>>>>> recovery
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> meteorites,
> >>>>>>> would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered
> >>>>>>> material
> >>>>>>> from a
> >>>>>>> new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly
> >>>>>>> follows
> >>>>>>> that the total
> >>>>>>> mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's 
> >>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of 
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> fall
> >>>>>>> is obviously
> >>>>>>> more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
> >>>>>>> terrestrial
> >>>>>>> weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived
> >>>>>>> radioisotopes
> >>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>> decayed below the threshold of detectability.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (3) Successful meteorite recovery requires a significant skill set 
> >>>>>>> AND
> >>>>>>> considerable
> >>>>>>> expenditures of time and money. In the U.S., I expect that more than
> >>>>>>> 95%
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> annual resources made available through government grants to recover
> >>>>>>> meteorites
> >>>>>>> goes to ANSMET. I've spent thousands of unpaid hours on the analysis
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> nearly
> >>>>>>> all U.S. falls that have occurred in the last 15 years, as well as a
> >>>>>>> number
> >>>>>>> of falls
> >>>>>>> outside America, and have devoted a not insignificant amount of time
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> money
> >>>>>>> traveling to many of these places to recover meteorites. On each of
> >>>>>>> these
> >>>>>>> expeditions I tend to encounter the same couple dozen of dedicated
> >>>>>>> individuals --
> >>>>>>> names that would all be familiar to anyone on the Meteorite List. On
> >>>>>>> occasion I have
> >>>>>>> seen other scientists "in the field," but I suspect in most cases it
> >>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>> own dime and not in an official paid capacity. Meteoriticists are 
> >>>>>>> paid
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> analyze
> >>>>>>> meteorites, not run around the country recovering them.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Now in Australia, we do have an likely issue of finds being hidden 
> >>>>>>>> (
> >>>>>>>> old
> >>>>>>>> falls and
> >>>>>>>> cold finds) due to our state laws. However this material will just
> >>>>>>>> add
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> the 50,000
> >>>>>>>> stones we need to know more about. Where these laws are a benefit 
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>> when
> >>>>>>>> our DFN etc detects a fall, scientists (not private hunters looking
> >>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>> profit or cost
> >>>>>>>> recovery) will go out grab the stone and bring it back!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Perhaps in Australia this happens. I have not seen evidence that 
> >>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> case
> >>>>>>> in the U.S.  Researchers have access to the same information that I
> >>>>>>> do:
> >>>>>>> Doppler
> >>>>>>> radar, seismic networks, all-sky cameras, internet posts, the AMS
> >>>>>>> website
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> a dozen other resources. Nothing other than time and funding is
> >>>>>>> stopping
> >>>>>>> them
> >>>>>>> from competing with private citizens.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We will know where it came from, where it landed, who found it, 
> >>>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> where it will stay exactly. With much more than just a 
> >>>>>>>> classification
> >>>>>>>> but,
> >>>>>>>> rare orbit
> >>>>>>>> data - which is contributing greatly to mapping our solar system 
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> more!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well, we got all of that on both Sutter's Mill and Creston, in spite
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> problems
> >>>>>>> of private land ownership and considerably harder searching 
> >>>>>>> conditions
> >>>>>>> than
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> almost ideal surfaces of the Australian outback. So both systems can
> >>>>>>> work.
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>> think the current U.S. laws favor a higher success rate than in
> >>>>>>> Australia
> >>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>> they (at least currently) provide enough incentive to boost the
> >>>>>>> people-hours
> >>>>>>> that get devoted to each fall.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Best wishes,
> >>>>>>> Rob
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>> and
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