[meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

From: Raremeteorites <raremeteorites_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 10:38:45 -0800
Message-ID: <7D4173C9567C4AB2AB023640038E6B87_at_HPDESKTOP>

I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they are
still on the books and most likely will never come off. I have not been
hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs and
people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect
people from making any form of profit. There is also no statue of
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Atkins" <thetoprok at aol.com>
To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam,

What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or whatever.
really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without actual charges
or at least a ticket, it's just words.

I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened during, or
just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a mission
to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same officers
watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger fish long
ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American meteorites
"poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long for them to
figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough money to merit
the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other topic.

 I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard
core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of hours
per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact with
was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some day
if we ever get together we can share some stories.

As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point. You
can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up fossils
all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will hold true for
meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first North American
Lunar.

 The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )



Sincerely,
Larry Atkins

IMCA # 1941
Ebay alienrockfarm



-----Original Message-----
From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

I wish what you said was true. Our entire group was hassled around the
Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California. Eight of our team members
were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been hassled
as well. Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they know what
is being sold on eBay. We were told that some public land is designated as
heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely off
limits while metal detectors cannot be used in other areas. I cannot find
any source which lists these areas so an agent can determine this in field
so be careful. Just ask artifact and fossils hunters what happened with
their once-fine avocation including the fellow who found "Sue" the dinosaur.





----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Atkins" <thetoprok at aol.com>
To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam, All,

This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering the laws
meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to nothing,
ask Michael Mulgrew how his application went. It's a joke. The people
enforcing the laws of our wild lands have better things to do than hassle
rock hounds. In my sixteen years of hunting and occasional selling I've
never heard of, or experienced trouble. In fact, I've encountered law
enforcement of all types while in the field, told them exactly what I was
doing, talked money and everything, and all they say is "Good luck! Have a
great day!"

Sell your rocks if you want, business as usual.



Sincerely,
Larry Atkins

IMCA # 1941
Ebay alienrockfarm



-----Original Message-----
From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 3:38 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

I agree with everything you stated with the exception of response 2 where
you state private citizens can profit from meteorite finds here in the
United States. It is against federal and most state laws to use meteorites
found on public land for commercial purposes meaning that the finder is not
allowed to sell anything they find. Private citizen are prohibited from
making a profit without a permit which will never be issued.



2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery of
meteorites,
would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material
from a
new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows
that the total
mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not just
the
quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a fall
is obviously
more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
terrestrial
weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisotopes
have
decayed below the threshold of detectability.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matson, Rob D. via Meteorite-list"
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 12:12 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Ian,

Since you brought up the Creston fall, presumably as a comparison example
against
current Australian state policies, I feel some counter-commentary is
appropriate.

> Creston is a example of where things went a bit pair shaped in my mind for
> science.

In my opinion, Creston was really no stranger than Sutter's Mill, Novato,
Battle Mountain,
Mifflin or Ash Creek. Science has been well served by all of these falls.

> USA had a private network of cameras setup that captured the fireball, a
> private individual
> and some others extracted that meteorite, the first piece(s) was then on
> sold. Finally it
> was sold for a ridiculous price. Not illegal or immoral......just not
> ideal

I think what you are getting at is that only a small fraction of each of
these falls made
it into the hands of researchers. There are a couple points to consider:

(1) How much material do researchers really need to extract the majority of
pertinent
scientific data from a fall? Sure, if you had infinite time you'd love to
have all of it since
the individual meteorites from a fall are not necessarily homogenous. (Case
in point:
Almahata Sitta). But balanced against this is the question of how much more
you're
going to learn by analyzing all of the stones from an L6 fall.

(2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery of
meteorites,
would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material
from a
new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows
that the total
mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not just
the
quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a fall
is obviously
more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
terrestrial
weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisotopes
have
decayed below the threshold of detectability.

(3) Successful meteorite recovery requires a significant skill set AND
considerable
expenditures of time and money. In the U.S., I expect that more than 95% of
the
annual resources made available through government grants to recover
meteorites
goes to ANSMET. I've spent thousands of unpaid hours on the analysis of
nearly
all U.S. falls that have occurred in the last 15 years, as well as a number
of falls
outside America, and have devoted a not insignificant amount of time and
money
traveling to many of these places to recover meteorites. On each of these
expeditions I tend to encounter the same couple dozen of dedicated
individuals --
names that would all be familiar to anyone on the Meteorite List. On
occasion I have
seen other scientists "in the field," but I suspect in most cases it was on
their
own dime and not in an official paid capacity. Meteoriticists are paid to
analyze
meteorites, not run around the country recovering them.

> Now in Australia, we do have an likely issue of finds being hidden ( old
> falls and
> cold finds) due to our state laws. However this material will just add to
> the 50,000
> stones we need to know more about. Where these laws are a benefit is that
> when
> our DFN etc detects a fall, scientists (not private hunters looking for
> profit or cost
> recovery) will go out grab the stone and bring it back!

Perhaps in Australia this happens. I have not seen evidence that this is the
case
in the U.S. Researchers have access to the same information that I do:
Doppler
radar, seismic networks, all-sky cameras, internet posts, the AMS website
and
a dozen other resources. Nothing other than time and funding is stopping
them
from competing with private citizens.

> We will know where it came from, where it landed, who found it, what it is
> and
> where it will stay exactly. With much more than just a classification but,
> rare orbit
> data - which is contributing greatly to mapping our solar system and more!

Well, we got all of that on both Sutter's Mill and Creston, in spite of the
problems
of private land ownership and considerably harder searching conditions than
the
almost ideal surfaces of the Australian outback. So both systems can work. I
just
think the current U.S. laws favor a higher success rate than in Australia
because
they (at least currently) provide enough incentive to boost the people-hours
that get devoted to each fall.

Best wishes,
Rob

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Received on Tue 19 Jan 2016 01:38:45 PM PST