[meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', researchers required to hand findings over

From: cdtucson at cox.net <*cdtucson_at_meteoritecentral.com*> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 15:39:14 -0500 Message-ID: <20160116153914.C1NTZ.198308.imail_at_fed1rmwml106> · cdtucson_at_meteoritecentral.com

--
Love & Life
---- Carl Agee via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote: 
> Not to bore everyone, but I'll repost thisexcerpt from Lincoln LaPaz's
> (founder of IOM)
> "Space Nomads: Meteorites in Sky, Field, and Laboratory". It is as
> true today as it was when the IOM was founded in 1944! Also relevant
> to this discussion I believe...
> 
> 
> "Meteorite hunting, unlike pure mathematics, cannot be conducted with
> success solely by publicity-shy individuals comfortably seated in
> armchairs. Unlike the chemist, who buys his research materials from
> catalogs; the bacteriologist, who brews up his cultures at will in a
> laboratory; and the botanist, who finds the objects of his
> experimentation in conveniently located greenhouse and herbarium, the
> meteoriticist is in large measure dependent on the general public for
> the specimens with which he works. In meteoritics, as in perhaps no
> other science, rapid progress depends on the intelligent cooperation
> of the layman, that fortunate individual destined, because of his
> ubiquitousness, not only to witness all meteorites yet to fall, but
> also, sooner or later, to stumble upon many of those that have already
> fallen..."
> 
> 
> *************************************
> Carl B. Agee
> President, Consortium for Materials Properties Research in Earth
> Sciences (COMPRES)
> Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
> Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
> MSC03 2050
> University of New Mexico
> Albuquerque NM 87131-1126
> 
> Tel: (505) 750-7172
> Fax: (505) 277-3577
> Email: agee at unm.edu
> http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks via
> Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> > Hi Ian and List,
> >
> > Yes, we can all play keyboard king and tell the governments and the
> > world how we think things should be done. There will never be an ideal
> > world and compromises must be made to keep everyone relatively happy
> > (or at least content or apathetic). I agree that nobody's system is
> > perfect, regardless of national boundaries.
> >
> > Comparing meteorites to collecting baseball cards is disingenuous.
> > Rock and mineral collecting is one of the oldest expressions of
> > geology. Amateur participation in that field has a long established
> > history that has benefited museums and science over the years. For
> > some people, meteorites are another rock to collect. For some they are
> > research material. For some they are national treasures. Ultimately,
> > who "owns" a meteorite? Do we really want some bureaucrat deciding
> > that? Isn't this a case where common sense (ha!) should apply?  Or,
> > call the lawyers and give them a pile of money to figure it out.
> >
> > I do not see the kind of rampant fraud and chicanery that Ian is
> > talking about. Sure, any marketplace has crooks (some vendors, some
> > buyers) and one has to only look at other collectible markets like
> > autographs or Tiffany glass to see that fraud is "rampant" there was
> > well. It all comes down to trust. If you don't trust the vendor's
> > honesty and expertise, then avoid their sales pitches.
> >
> > "> I constantly see deception, fraud, ridiculous pricing, items stolen out of
> >> countries, governments and scientists disrespected, incorrectly described
> >> items, dubious provenance, destroyed samples, tiny fragments, endless
> >> provenance hand balling etc etc"
> >
> > Where are you looking exactly?  eBay?  Craigslist?  Boot sales?  You
> > can also buy a million types of snake oil at those same venues. It
> > doesn't mean it's a problem that is endemic in any given field that
> > sells or buys at that venue. Most known members of this mailing list
> > are trustworthy. We all know who is and who isn't.  And the people who
> > are crooks get run out of town pretty quick. There are a few of us who
> > might be eccentrics, anti-socials, egotists, blowhards, or some other
> > species of the common jerk, but you know who to trust when it comes to
> > authenticity. The field sorts itself out and the informed buyer
> > chooses from well-established and reputable sources.
> >
> > Nobody likes thieves or scammers and the only issue I have with the
> > list of negative attributes on your list is "tiny fragments".  As
> > someone who has owned, traded, and sold his share of tiny fragments,
> > that is not a negative thing that should be lumped in with thievery.
> >
> > As I am sure you are aware, most scientific analysis doesn't require
> > large volumes of material, especially redundant materials for
> > diminishing/no scientific gain. Even a 3mg Bessey Speck is big enough
> > for the microprobe and then some.  It's scientific value might be
> > extremely limited if that speck represents yet another unremarkable H5
> > W4 from the NWA DCA.
> >
> > What about the samples from scientifically-interesting material like
> > NWA 7038?  How much science could be done with a "tiny fragment" of
> > that?  Speaking of remarkable meteorites with scientific value, the
> > recent Martian NWA 7038 was found by someone who never saw the inside
> > of a classroom, traded to another person with no degrees, and sold to
> > another guy with no letters after his name. Middle level dealers
> > bought and sold some pieces after it trickled down into the market,
> > and now people are paying $20-$50 for a crumb weighing less than 20mg.
> > If we had waited on a juried collection of bureaucrat-approved dandies
> > to make that recovery, "Black Beauty" would be buried in the desert
> > until all of it's value to science was eroded to nothing.
> >
> > Now, not much of that particular meteorite (or it's pairings) is on
> > the collector market waiting to be bought like a baseball card. But, a
> > "tiny fragment" can cost a day's work for some people, and does that
> > make it less valuable or less ethical? Should only well-heeled (or
> > connected) people of letters be allowed to collect meteorites? Should
> > I buy a tiny fragment of something for my collection (or research), or
> > should we budget-limited souls take our unwashed minds back to the
> > fleamarket and rummage for Beanie Babies and old postcards?
> >
> > If somebody is breaking the law to hunt (or buy,trade,sell,collect)
> > meteorites, then there are obviously laws already in place against
> > fraud and theft that need to be enforced. If somebody in the IMCA is
> > crooked, call them out and report them to the board. If somebody on
> > this List is crooked, call them out and let them answer for their
> > shady dealings.
> >
> > But, let's not act like some government or board of academics should
> > be the judge and jury of who gets to keep a meteorite found on private
> > property, or to decide who the owner of said meteorite should be able
> > to give/sell/trade it to for everyone's mutual satisfaction.
> >
> > I didn't mean to offend the hard working and ethical hunters in
> > Australia who abide by the rules and make recoveries that are
> > available to science. When I called out Australia, I did not mean -
> > "Ooooh look at Australia, their government is dumb and these people
> > can't trust their own citizens to own or trade a meteorite".  What I
> > meant was this : take a look at Morocco or the US by comparison. Many
> > more finds are made, and made available to science because the process
> > of acquiring these finds does not involve a chain of forms in
> > triplicate, the approval of a ten-layer bureaucracy, and some
> > unelected yahoo deciding who keeps what and what it might be worth if
> > sold or traded.
> >
> > Does abuse happen in Morocco and the US?  Yes, and existing laws in
> > those countries address those abuses. It's already illegal to smuggle
> > commodities. Trying to sneak an undeclared chocolate bar across
> > international borders can land you in a locked room. Nobody in their
> > right mind would want to sit in a Algerian jail for grand theft. It
> > doesn't mean people won't try it anyway, but that doesn't mean a
> > distant outside federal/imperial bureaucracy should have jurisdiction
> > over the issue.
> >
> > I don't know about you, I'd rather deal with the person who lives near
> > me, might know me, and has something in common with me - not some guy
> > with drank his way to a degree, wears a clip-on tie, and lives in a
> > walled compound 1000 miles away.
> >
> > In the end, conquerors write history books and make the laws. Ask the
> > American Indians who should own the meteorites that fall on American
> > soil. They are the rightful owners of the land, but a bunch of old
> > white guys with clip-on ties now call the shots here. Or, ask the
> > aborigines in Australia who own the meteorites that fall there. Oh,
> > you can't, because England used it for penal colony and then the
> > inmates took over. Or, ask the Argentines who gets to keep the Campos.
> > Oh wait, the original Campo owners were killed or bred out of
> > existence by Spanish and Portuguese "missionaries". (at least they are
> > in a better place now, right?  The savages weren't landed gentry or
> > men of letters, so who cares.)
> >
> > Sorry Ian, I am not firing on your personally. I just get a little
> > ticked off at attitudes like that in the original article that started
> > this discussion. It reminded me of that terrible hit piece on the
> > "meteorite black market" in the NYT a few years back and that the IMCA
> > published a rebuttal to it.
> >
> > As far as tiny fragments being bad or negative, that is personal to me
> > also because I collect specimens of all types, including micromounts
> > and I trade in "tiny fragments". I have over 100 localities in my
> > collection that are all authentic. I can provide free samples large
> > enough for analysis to any authoritative institution that wishes to
> > test their validity. I trust my sources that well. If I didn't, I
> > wouldn't have acquired the specimen in the first place and I certainly
> > would not have offered it to someone else if there was ever any doubt
> > about it's authenticity.  Any good dealer/trader/collector would
> > adhere to those standards, regardless of whether or not they had an
> > IMCA number.
> >
> > I gotta ask though, what is "provenance hand balling"? I have not
> > heard that one before. I assume it means falsifying or obfuscating
> > some part of the chain of custody? Or, am I just dense and missed this
> > one.
> >
> > Happy Huntings Ian. Nothing personal to you or Australian people. It's
> > more my frustration at unwarranted or incompetent government
> > intrustion into private or scientific affairs.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > MikeG
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 1/15/16, ian macleod via Meteorite-list
> > <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> >> Hi List, we can bang on about laws all day (which actually vary here in
> >> Australia between states) and also point fingers at scientists and museum
> >> staff we don't know. At the end of the day the law is the law...Deal with
> >> it
> >>
> >>
> >> There is no elitism going on, these guys are nice enough they just have to
> >> make a point and warning in respect to laws.
> >>
> >>
> >> Bob is right the Canadian model is a better system. The USA has too much
> >> freedom that is abused, Australia the opposite occurs
> >>
> >>
> >> The idea meteorites are not found or reported in Australia is far from
> >> accurate.
> >>
> >>
> >> See the USA enjoys a 'few' remaining labs that processing many kilograms of
> >> potentially stolen property out of NWA, this has given the appearance of
> >> very active work, and that something new is happening......respectfully I
> >> beg to differ
> >>
> >> We now have 50,000 meteorites and only 6 or so that we have orbit data for.
> >> The orbit ones were all found by camera networks NOT guys all over Africa
> >>
> >>
> >> So when it comes to collecting the next find like baseball cards or wanting
> >> to see meteoritics evolve.....I chose evolution
> >>
> >>
> >> I constantly see deception, fraud, ridiculous pricing, items stolen out of
> >> countries, governments and scientists disrespected, incorrectly described
> >> items, dubious provenance, destroyed samples, tiny fragments, endless
> >> provenance hand balling etc etc
> >>
> >>
> >> and this is coming from many IMCA and non IMCA sellers and hunters
> >>
> >>
> >> So sorry lads Im sticking with the scientists on this one and the with few
> >> people in the private collecting meteorite community I trust....
> >>
> >>
> >> Ian
> >> ______________________________________________
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> >
> >
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