[meteorite-list] R: iron meteorite natural color

From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 15:27:41 -0500
Message-ID: <158c138985e-7626-2436_at_webprd-a49.mail.aol.com>

Hi, Not Naval Jelly. An expensive paint. A primer/sealant... Is there Candy-apple red available?

Best wishes
Doug


-----Original Message-----
From: Marcin Cima?a - POLANDMET <marcin at polandmet.com>
To: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aol.com>; jl <jl at lutzon.com>; cojack <cojack at tiscali.it>
Cc: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2016 2:46 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] R: iron meteorite natural color

Hello list
I purchased and tested "european" version of Naval Jelly. Looks very good to
me.
https://s11.postimg.org/6r86cyl3n/OOOOOOOOOOO.jpg


-----[ MARCIN CIMALA ]----[ +48 793567667 ]-----
http://www.Meteoryty.pl marcin(at)meteoryty.pl
http://www.PolandMET.com marcin(at)polandmet.com
--------[ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society ]--------




> Hi John,
>
> I understood you were interested in the gassing/vapor process of bluing,
> which is just one way to "blue". Not sure but think this will cause acid
> at its boiling temperature ("acid steam") or ambient over hours as a
> vapor, to penetrate the porous iron, so you need to deal with that just as
> the naval jelly or even more since it penetrates more vs a gel that stays
> on the surface more. A gun barrel should be finished to remove all
> surface imperfections and get down to a smooth polished surface before
> such treatment, right? Experts? The polished barrel surface can be
> easily cleaned and very effectively degreased after doing that step by
> step purging spent chemicals used in the process.
>
> The meteorite presents a way bigger challenge due to its porous and
> weathered nature. If I were testing I would find a rusted gun barrel or
> other suitable piece of metal that has a surface that was severely rust
> damaged, give it the treatment and then see how it blues, pitted,
> channeled and cratered out. That would be an practice step before
> deciding to try the meteorite. The practice step would be interesting not
> only for practice but also to get a feel for how well it works as the
> surface to be finished gets more imperfect or intermediate. For sure this
> effect can be done, but really is it feasible or just a curiosity to play
> with because you think a color is cool, anyway those are my thoughts.
>
> We all have our view on the meaning of "natural" which like Pilate has an
> ambiguous answer. Because it means different things to different people
> what makes me happy is to look at each locality as found and clean them up
> preserving that aspect best. We saw that in Francisco's links of some
> awesome specimens. Anyway we all do what we want. The problem is that
> when we use meteorites as educational tools we can do a disservice to
> those learning that don't have the benefit of seeing what has been done to
> the meteorite. Soon, somebody says that we all know Campos are black!
>
> My analogy would be that I grew up thinking that dinosaurs were gray like
> elephants, hippos, and alligators. Now some evidence points to the
> possibility of some having been brightly or iridescently colored. Bummer
> I grew up with that assumption.
>
> Since irons are believed from shattered proto-planets and asteroids
> capable of differentiation, I feel ok with bright fresh metal color being
> pristine. Could be wrong but seems harmless at this point abd after
> floating around as you say who knows the effects of space weathering on a
> particular iron. Here is a NASA artists conception of (16) Psyche, the
> big mother of iron space rocks.
> http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/asteroid/20150930/psyche20150929.jpg
>
> Perhaps we will know before Christmas whether NASA decides to give Arizona
> State's half billion dollar Psyche mission a green light and we'll get to
> see it up close and comfortable in color in 10 years from now if we last
> that long.
>
> For now I'm happy to be a minimalist, remembering the error of the
> dinosaurs. Since irons are supposed from M-class asteroids from
> collisions denuding the cores of differentiated bodies, I think a freshly
> cleaned iron meteorites or a polished slice is a safe color to call
> natural and unmodified to our collections. That is why I told Francisco
> to learn to like the bare metal color. And for individuals I prefer to be
> conservative and capture the color of what they look like as found
> whenever possible, after nature has taken its course. With the rusting
> problems on Campos I guess it isn't too important if we start making them
> in personalized colors so everyone can have the pretty meteorite in the
> color of their choice, just like Atlas pasta machines. Candy apple red
> comes to mind, to go with the Mustang convertible in my dreams some day!
> '
> My Best
> Doug
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Lutzon <jl at lutzon.com>
> To: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aol.com>; Francesco Moser <cojack at tiscali.it>
> Cc: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Mon, Nov 28, 2016 11:26 pm
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] R: iron meteorite natural color
>
>
> Doug,
>
> I do admire you and would like to question you and the whole question of
> "natural" patina......
> These guys have been floating out there for Billions of years and only
> when they arrive here
> and burn to a crisp (which I personally love a bubbly black coating) do we
> call it natural.
> When these metal chunks first formed and cooled they may have shined like
> a new coin.
>
> This jelly or that coating will all introduce "stuff" on and into said
> object. I agrre with you
> as far as cleaning and then acetone (to, again, de-grease). After that,
> the most natural way
> to darken and protect iron is the hundreds of years old method of forming
> iron oxide and
> boiling. This process leaves no chemicals on the object. The most
> difficult part of doing
> this process is the cleaning and de-greasing---after that just put a small
> amount or reagent
> in the bottom of household food container, hang the meteorite and wait
> about 8 hours (varies),
> take out and put in a pot of boiling water. The red/brown iron oxide
> somehow turns black
> and when brushed off leaves a protective dark finish. Simple. Every blued
> gun you've ever seen
> has had this oxidation method applied and after hundreds of years some of
> them look pritine.
>
> As I do not know if this process will work on an iron such as Campo, I
> (although in a wheelchair)
> have decided to try this method on one of my smaller 5.45Kg individuals.
> Although i'm more
> than happy with its present apperance, which can be seen here, i'll give
> it a go.
> http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=2639
> As there were no comments on my original post, i'll do it and get back
> with the results, pics.
>
> All best to all, John
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "MexicoDoug via Meteorite-list"
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> To: <cojack at tiscali.it>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 9:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] R: iron meteorite natural color
>
>
> Hi Francisco, My opinion is no, about "naval jelly" for the reasons I
> discussed in my last post somewhere below. But if you want
> to do that yourself, you can make a gel out of phosphoric acid, about
> 12-20% (w/w). Gel is made with addition of a food gum starch
> like when you make Italian gelato. It will stain darker for reaction with
> the acid. (instead of oxide you get phosphate). Here is
> an example:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_pillar_of_Delhi#/media/File:QtubIronPillar.JPG
> However leaving harsh acid is not my idea then it penetrates the meteorite
> like Muonion.
>
> Regarding your question to me, I did not misunderstand, I think. You
> simply do not want the true matte gray color of the clean
> metal after you remove the oxidation. And you are clear now that you do
> not want to fake a natural color, you just want to change
> the color to look more "natural" :-). (Then everyone will see this color
> and believe it is natural unless you tell them
> differently.)
>
> This Campo is old buried microscopically fractured metal piece if you read
> near the bottom I recommended the process, assuming
> first you had sandblasted and treated as you indicated you would:
>
> "The simplest things are: degrease with acetone if you are serious, then
> dry gentle heat a few hours followed by a good oil and you
> will build up a light protective oxidation layer. If you use any of the
> aggressive chemicals you have mentioned after cleaning you
> will reintroduce them. This is not a smooth surface you can just wipe
> them off. The get sucked in.
>
> Finally upon removing from the oven you can instead soak them like hot
> potatoes in hot paraffin or other of these microcrystalline
> waxes and oils. Hot, so it is absorbed into all those crevices that have
> been created by you removing the oxides and nature's
> ambient forces beating the buried meteorite. Then a little of the oil when
> all is cooled every now and then wont's hurt on the
> surface and is the easiest way to keep things in check."
>
> OK, now you change the question to ask to me and others:
> "It's possible to convert nude grey to nude black? Without using oil or
> waxes?
> Or it's better to use a different process for remove rust?
>
> To that my thought is you must experiment under your conditions with oven
> *heat alone* after treatment. Use with different oven
> times and temperatures until you see what tones you can achieve. The heat
> will create some of these darkening effects,
> re-oxidizing the fresh surface in a controlled way which I think is what
> you are asking to do since you don't want coatings. The
> purpose of the wax or oil is to stabilize the interior, not to color the
> surface, so this is independent of your surface staining..
> A side effect of oil is that dark fresh, chloride free rust is taken up in
> the oil and smuges (colors) the surface darker, the more
> you rub...with gloves.
>
> You ask about no use of oil, but consider your severely rusted original
> meteorite is porous after the thousands of years
> terrestrialized somewhat, so any exterior coating will not protect the
> interior. Oil is principally for that purpose, to close any
> pores and keep the interior cleaned, IMO, no matter how you destructively
> stain your native metal that has been revealed after
> cleaning.
>
> Better yet, buy a more solid meteorite like Gibeon or Seymchan and give it
> a light brushing like your links. Some of those links
> are beautiful and solid. They are not so prone to rust because they are
> like solid metal parts - not porous. The underlying metal
> is good sh*t! Just like buying good new tools, properly hardened, not
> some junk from cheap factory using inferior or degraded
> quality base metal.
>
> Or maybe rub a little microfine graphite lubrication particles into the
> oil until you get the favorite shade of black. It is
> easily removed, including on fingers LOL (I never did that but it might be
> interesting)
>
> Maybe others who are more practiced in this can help but this is the best
> I can say. Best of luck!
> Doug
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francesco Moser <cojack at tiscali.it>
> To: 'MexicoDoug' <mexicodoug at aol.com>
> Sent: Mon, Nov 28, 2016 9:51 am
> Subject: R: iron meteorite natural color
>
> Hello Doug!
> Thanks a lot for your kind and long reply!
>
> I think I was misunderstood due to my poor English.
> Let me try to explain what I mean and what I want to reach as result, I
> use some pictures as example so maybe I can explain what I
> have in my mind at best.
> I don't want to put paint on the meteorite, absolutely no!
>
> A fresh fall iron meteorite is gray/bluish, like this fresh fall:
> http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/alihmani.jpg.w560h747.jpg
> Some Sikhote-Alin hold the original dark/bluish fusion crust in the
> deepest regmaglypts.
> I don't want to replicate this!
>
> If the meteorite fall in a desert there will be on the surface a desert
> varnish patina, like this Gibeon and Taza:
> http://megameteorite.com/img/meteoriti/famose/ferrose/gibeon_728.9.jpg
> http://www.polandmet.com/_taza/002.htm
> That's an amazing surface! I like it so much and I consider really
> natural.
> I don't want to replicate this!
>
> A deep buried meteorite like Muonionalusta have a thick layer of oxide,
> rock and soil cemented with rust and something else.
> Like this:
> http://thumbs.picclick.com/00/s/MTIyNlgxNjAw/z/R9QAAOSw44BYKadV/$/Iron-meteorite-Muonionalusta-complete-piece-Sweden-1370-grams-_57.jpg
> This meteorite of course is natural, it is in as found condition!
> Sorry but I don't really like this surface looking.
>
> If I deep clean and blast sanding a meteorite like this I will obtain a
> nude grey iron meteorite.
> Something like this Dronino:
> http://thumbs.picclick.com/00/s/OTc2WDE2MDA=/z/vZYAAOSwmfhX5vTW/$/172-gram-DRONINO-METEORITE-specimen-from-RUSSIA-_57.jpg
> For me this looking is too artificial and I don't like it.
> I can reach this results, I have done this job some time on Muonio before
> cutting slices.
>
> So ... as found condition is "too natural" and "nude grey iron" is too
> artificial!
> This is in my opinion a good half way:
> http://www.polandmet.com/_morasko/003.htm
> Nude black iron!!!
> This is what I mean in my first mail and premise
> "As we know an iron meteorite, such like Campo del Cielo for example, have
> a black surface."
> All the Campo I found on the market have this type of "black" surface:
> http://www.katiepaterson.org/meteorite/katie_paterson_meteorite_giorgia_polizzi_120711_6695.jpg
>
> This is what I want!!!
>
> So .. how can I deeply remove rust and preserve this nude black iron
> surface?
> I'm planning to use sand blasting for remove the rust, but with this
> process I will obtain a "nude grey iron"
> It's possible to convert nude grey to nude black? Without using oil or
> waxes?
> Or it's better to use a different process for remove rust?
>
>
> I hope you can understand what I mean :)
>
> Thanks
>
> <x>x<x>x<x>
> Francesco
>
>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: MexicoDoug [mailto:mexicodoug at aol.com]
> Inviato: sabato 26 novembre 2016 22:46
> A: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Oggetto: Re: iron meteorite natural color
>
> Ciao Francisco
>
> I'll try to give you a little more insight on your questions from my point
> of view and then write about what is practical to do.
> It is important to stress "point of view" because in the end you will
> probably do with your meteorites whatever makes you happiest,
> which clearly the impulse at this point is a jet black cosmetic preference
> of smooth black which I do not like when it is a
> synthetic laboratory process.
>
> First, you initially you asked:
>
> "As we know an iron meteorite, such like Campo del Cielo for example, have
> a black surface. I have here a deeply rusted Campo, I'm
> planning to remove rust with a sand blasting process. But with this I will
> obtain a grayish surface, like naked iron, the same
> color of a slice."
>
> This is *not* "as we know". I do not know of Campo meteorites being
> recovered with black surfaces, do you or anybody else know
> this? I never personally had the good fortune to recover a Campo myself
> so it it my assumption. I have recovered other iron
> meteorites. All are light or dark orange rust color except one locality
> that actually was naturally weathered to black.
>
> So I feel your original premise of "as we know ... Campo ... black" is a
> false premise. Is it based on a mixed series of
> assumptions maybe due to equating space, mystery, adrenaline, and night to
> blackness, seeing some naturally blackened weathered
> meteorites, imagining a stony meteorite fresh crust for your iron, and
> maybe never seeing a freshly fallen iron meteorite that has
> not be cleaned and altered its surface by sellers for markets such as
> jewelry where a concept is being marketed and not what is
> "natural"?
>
> Rubbing mineral or other appropriate oil and if you are serious like
> hinted by Marcin, dry, quite gentle oven heat will darken the
> metal, the later also mentioned by Marcin.
>
> The initial fall fresh probably had a blue-gray color, like metal heated
> in a furnace. It is somewhat darker but the coloring is
> the fusion crust. Your Campo has lost its fusion crust a long time ago.
> If you have an uncrusted ordinary chondrite fragment
> would you also want to treat the matrix surface to turn it black? No!
> What you have exposed it the interior, in its natural
> color. Now you want to make it dark.
>
> OK, so you work so hard to removed all the oxides/rusts and chlorides, and
> now you want to treat it to return them. Only this time
> you want to do it in a controlled fashion to fake the look of natural
> weathering.
>
> Let us look what nature does. If it is fresh and dry, it can blacken and
> leave intact real fusion crust. Most likely though, it
> will fall in a humid environment and rust orange and form some surface
> scale or shale. Sometimes you can get a tough rather
> orange, near black, coating like Gibeons can appear on the market. But
> let's instead think of natural.
>
> WHAT IS NATURAL? (asks Pilate!) Natural is a very gradual and slow
> process in which oxidation takes place, perhaps not too deeply
> as to preserve smooth fusion crust in many finds and falls. It requires
> many many cycles of: oxidize lightly, oxidize uniformly,
> clean (perhaps by wind abrasion and washed by distilled rain, even acid
> rain is effective.
>
> Now you want to falsely reproduce that process on the matrix of a long
> rusted meteorite that has been pickled in aggressive caustic
> chemicals. That's gross! It is like skinning off the hide of an animal
> and then coloring its remaining carcass the color of fur
> for display instead of the natural colors of the muscles, fats and organs.
>
> OK, but you still want to do it and don't agree with me. There are more
> problems. The naturally colored meteorites that are black
> or orange and have little to no scaling and original layers of fusion
> crust at the least alpha-2 layer, may be significantly
> impervious to seepage, but your Campo has already developed cracks, faults
> internal cavities from rot that was removed, due to
> thousands of years un soil and rain, powerful roots, expansion and
> contraction by temperature changes, and general oxidative
> terrestrial processes, solubilization of corrosive catalysts you.ve
> removed, you hope.
>
> My point is you can color it however you want, but the fake coloring will
> be misleading, it will not have inside a
> weathering-naturally stabilized meteorite and its internals due to their
> porous and fissured nature will not be as represented.
> The more you do to an iron to make a faux patina, possibly the more you
> will need to work to redo regularly. The more it is
> handled the more contaminants will get into it from sweat, etc. And!!!
> to make that false patina fool those to think it closer to
> natural, you must dig into the surface of your material and oxidize it in
> a controlled manner, further weathering the piece of
> bright matrix you cut (not with a saw but with chemicals).
>
> The simplest things are: degrease with acetone if you are serious, then
> dry gentle heat a few hours followed by a good oil and you
> will build up a light protective oxidation layer. If you use any of the
> aggressive chemicals you have mentioned after cleaning you
> will reintroduce them. This is not a smooth surface you can just wipe
> them off. The get sucked in.
>
> Finally upon removing from the oven you can instead soak them like hot
> potatoes in hot paraffin or other of these microcrystalline
> waxes and oils. Hot, so it is absorbed into all those crevices that have
> been created by you removing the oxides and nature's
> ambient forces beating the buried meteorite. The a little of the oil when
> all is cooled every now and then wont's hurt on the
> surface and is the easiest way to keep things in check.
>
> Hope that helps more! I apologize for my point of view but it is based on
> my idea of what a meteorite "should look like" which is
> an emotional concept and I agree here that this is only my personal
> opinion, authentically conserving whatever characteristics of
> the locality possible, and balancing that with preventing rampant
> oxidation. It is like cleaning coins. The only thin worse than
> a cleaned coin is one that has been cleaned and then colored in some way
> to hid the fact it was cleaned, usually to sell for more
> as a coin that never was cleaned will fetch from buyers.
>
> Other options besides paint, are VCI systems to preserve professionally
> used by some hard core collectors, and electroplating
> metals used for jewelry ... You can even try silver which will be
> initially bright but will soon turn very black!
>
> My best,
> Doug
> (Feeling like H.H.Nininger now when he bellyached about people etching
> iron meteorites with a border of shellac on the slices to
> leave a very "unnatural" etch of the slice. He felt this would be
> detrimental to people understanding what a meteorite truly
> looked like and do a disservice to meteoritics. Notwithstanding, this
> practice had become popular amount some nowadays as ol' H.H.
> rolls over...)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francesco Moser via Meteorite-list
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> To: Meteorite-list <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Sat, Nov 26, 2016 11:20 am
> Subject: [meteorite-list] R: iron meteorite natural color
>
> Marcin and Doug!
> Thanks for your replys!
>
> Ok, I understand what you mean about the authenticity of color.
> For sure the desert varnish of some iron meteorite like Gibeon or Henbury
> is the most natural looking for a find (not fall)
> meteorite.
> But old and buried meteorite like Muonionalusta or Campo have a very thick
> rust and oxide crust, I suppose no one want to have that
> on his irons.
> So after remove and clean all the rust shale what remains? Grey nude iron
> ... it is absolutely not natural!!!
> So for me on this type of meteorite the black surface is something better
> that the nude iron, isn't?
> Of course I don't want to paint the meteorite, just convert the nude grey
> iron to dark.
> How it is possible? With oil?
>
> All the Campo that are on the market have nude dark iron on the surface,
> how can I reach the same looking starting from nude grey
> iron results of sand blasting?
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Ciao
>
> <x>x<x>x<x>
> Francesco
>
>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: Meteorite-list [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com]
> Per conto di Marcin Cimala - POLANDMET via Meteorite-list
> Inviato: gioved? 24 novembre 2016 23:42
> A: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Oggetto: Re: [meteorite-list] iron meteorite natural color
>
>> Hello,
>> I have a question.
>> As we know an iron meteorite, such like Campo del Cielo for example,
>> have a black surface.
>> I have here a deeply rusted Campo, I'm planning to remove rust with a
>> sand blasting process.
>> But with this I will obtain a greysh surface, like naked iron, the
>> same color of a slice.
>> Not really a natural color for the exterior of an iron meteorite and
>> also not aestetically pretty, looks too artificial for me.
>> There is something to do for restore the original black color?
>> Or it's better to remove the rust with a traditional steel brush,
>> maybe with a drill ???
>>
>> Tips for mechanical or chemical process are welkomme!!!
>> I can try with the classical NaOh bath, I have also Phosphoric, Citric
>> and Oxalic acid :)
>>
>> Thanks
>> <x>x<x>x<x>
>> Francesco
>
> Hah good question Francesco. But what is natural color of meteorite at all
> ?
>
> Desert sandblasted NWA is not a real looking meteorite? Should I paint
> them black to be looking like a real meteorites ? Poor
> Dhofars....
> This is what Im fighting long time. Strange stereotype that meteorite MUST
> BE BLACK outside, WHY ?
>
> When You like Your girlfrend ? When he smile to You with his pretty face
> or when she put ton of Max Factor chemicals on it??
>
> I have always strange taste, different than most of collectors. For me, if
> specimen have crust must be black or black with rusty
> patina. If meteorite have no more crust like Campo, why to "paint" it to
> black to looks like Sikhote ? Then You will see paint, not
> Your meteorite. I only can imagine what strange things they do to clean
> Campo and look it like that. LOL
>
> OK now a few tips.
> As I understand Your Campo is a complete specimen ? To remove deep rust
> You must use electrochemical cleaning + brush + small
> hammer. Then You will get mostly cleaned meteorite with BLACK remains of
> rust that will make Your meteorite looks REAL.Then heat it
> and put alot of oil to make it looks fresh and oriented :)
>
> -----[ MARCIN CIMALA ]----[ +48 793567667 ]----- http://www.Meteoryty.pl
> marcin(at)meteoryty.pl
> http://www.PolandMET.com marcin(at)polandmet.com
> --------[ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society ]--------
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________
>
> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the
> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
> ---
> Questa e-mail ? stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast
> antivirus.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> ______________________________________________
>
> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the
> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
> ______________________________________________
>
> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the
> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
> ______________________________________________
>
> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the
> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
Received on Fri 02 Dec 2016 03:27:41 PM PST