[meteorite-list] Definitions of types of falls and finds

From: Michael Mulgrew <mikestang_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 15:06:04 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMseTy1VBUotaqvjd3a+yd18M43QYvqZhrhh1j1rFFR_+qDoVg_at_mail.gmail.com>

Fall, find, anything further is unnecessary clutter. All falls are
finds, but not all finds are falls, the rest is just semantics.

K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple, Stupid

Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 1:01 PM, <cdtucson at cox.net> wrote:
> Mendy,
> All due respect to you and Jeff Grossman (one of our Royalty figures) but, to me a fall is either observed or there is great evidence like damage caused by the impact. All else is a find. Because after all, all finds are falls or how else would they be here?
> Best Rgards,
> Carl
> meteoritemax
> --
> Love & Life
>
> ---- Mendy Ouzillou <mendy.ouzillou at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've been thinking about the email Jeff sent out some time back and wanted
>> to propose a slightly different set of names and simplify the nomenclature.
>> You can see Jeff's original email below. I think we have all struggled with
>> defining meteorites that are neither observed falls nor finds and part of
>> the reason is that we were conflating too many ideas.
>> Observed fall: Observed to fall, either by eyewitnesses or with instruments.
>> The event was well documented. Physical evidence associated with the
>> collected meteorites is consistent with a fresh fall, or, when collection
>> does not occur immediately, the strewn field location (if there is one) and
>> appearance taking into account weathering associated with time on the
>> ground, may be directly attributed to the fall.
>> Correlated fall: No material was found immediately after an observed event,
>> but later analysis and physical evidence conclusively points to an observed
>> event on a specific date or within a very narrow range of dates.
>> Find: Material was found and no event can be conclusively associated with an
>> observed event. A find that appears like a fresh fall is still a find if no
>> observed event can be associated with it.
>> Feedback welcome.
>> Mendy Ouzillou
>> IMCA8393
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
>> Grossman
>> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 6:26 AM
>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
>>
>> I should add: my first two categories are types of falls, whereas the last
>> three are types of finds.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> On 1/5/2013 8:12 AM, Jeff Grossman wrote:
>> > In all seriousness, I have considered refining, or at least qualifying
>> > the definition of "fall." The categories I've considered are these,
>> > and the definitions are first passes:
>> >
>> > Observed fall: observed to fall, either visually or with instruments,
>> > and collected soon after the event. The event was well documented.
>> > Physical evidence associated with the collected meteorites is
>> > consistent with a fresh fall, or, when collection does not occur
>> > immediately, directly points to a fall at the time of the observed event.
>> >
>> > Unobserved fall: No observations were made of a fall event, but
>> > physical evidence conclusively points to a fall on a specific date or
>> > within a very narrow range of dates.
>> >
>> > Probable fall: In these cases, there was a well-documented meteor
>> > event with characteristics consistent with a meteorite fall, followed
>> > by the collection of meteorites some time later. There is a strong
>> > likelihood that the meteorite fell in the observed event, but physical
>> > evidence is not fully conclusive.
>> >
>> > Possible fall: The same situation as a probable fall, but there is
>> > significant doubt about whether the meteorite is connected to the
>> > event or about the reliability of the observations of the event.
>> >
>> > Doubtful fall: The same situation as a possible fall, but there is a
>> > high degree of doubt.
>> >
>> > This was all suggested by the circumstances surrounding the Bene?ov
>> > (a) and (b) meteorites, which I would have put in the "possible fall"
>> > category, if such a thing existed.
>> >
>> > Jeff
>> >
>> > On 1/4/2013 8:57 PM, Michael Farmer wrote:
>> >> I find this new attempt to change terminology disturbing. I have
>> >> hundreds of old catalogs from the top museums and dealers from more
>> >> than 200 years ago till today, all of them list falls and finds. None
>> >> of them discuss unobserved falls as an acceptable alternative.
>> >> Are we really ready to just accept anything thrown out there, and
>> >> watch as all manner of BS is used to discredit hundreds of years of
>> >> accepted terminology?
>> >> My private collection focuses on witnessed falls, with date and time
>> >> and science to back it up.
>> >> I am not interested in another group which would include every
>> >> meteorite ever to have fallen, since they did actually all fall at
>> >> some point.
>> >> Well, I guess Anne can delete her birthday fall calendar page since
>> >> now we can simply put every NWA on any date you choose to believe it
>> >> might have possibly fallen:).
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Michael Farmer
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPad
>> >>
>> >> On Jan 4, 2013, at 6:47 PM, "Mike Bandli" <fuzzfoot at comcast.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> If a meteorite falls from the sky and no one is there to hear it,
>> >>> does it make a sound?
>> >>>
>> >>> ;^]
>> >>>
>> >>> ----------------------------------------------
>> >>> Mike Bandli
>> >>> Historic Meteorites
>> >>> www.HistoricMeteorites.com
>> >>> and join us on Facebook:
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>> >>> IMCA #5765
>> >>> -----------------------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
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>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>> >>> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of
>> >>> hall at meteorhall.com
>> >>> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 5:36 PM
>> >>> To: Anne Black
>> >>> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; valparint at aol.com
>> >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
>> >>>
>> >>> Right, Anne. That is why they are referred to as a "Fall" or a "Find".
>> >>> Concise!
>> >>> Cheers, Fred Hall
>> >>>
>> >>>> Every single meteorite ever found on Earth is necessarily the
>> >>>> result of a fall, they are not native to Earth. The only difference
>> >>>> is that some falls are seen, witnessed, and some, the vast majoriry,
>> are not.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So calling them Observed or Unobserved falls is logical. That is
>> >>>> what happened to all of them.
>> >>>> That is simple reality.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Anne M. Black
>> >>>> www.IMPACTIKA.com
>> >>>> IMPACTIKA at aol.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> tFrom: hall <hall at meteorhall.com>
>> >>>> To: Michael Farmer <mike at meteoriteguy.com>
>> >>>> Cc: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; valparint
>> >>>> <valparint at aol.com>
>> >>>> Sent: Fri, Jan 4, 2013 6:13 pm
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> An "unobserved fall" is two words to describe the one word that
>> >>>> has been used for a century, "Find". The one word "Find" is good
>> >>>> enough for the Catalogue of Meteorites, it was good enough for
>> >>>> Harvey Nininger, and it is what I shall always use. Keep it concise.
>> >>>> Regards, Fred Hall
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> That would make sense for say New Orleans, where a stone went
>> >>>> through a
>> >>>>> house and no one in their right mind would suggest that it did not
>> >>>> fall at
>> >>>>> that time say between 8 am and 4 pm when there was no hole in the
>> >>>> house,
>> >>>>> yet it was not seen to fall.
>> >>>>> An old rock found in a field does not suggest anything about fall
>> >>>> date. So
>> >>>>> it is a find, something never really argued against until now?
>> >>>>> It has crust which can suggest it is not thousands of years old,
>> >>>>> most
>> >>>> of
>> >>>>> our Springwater meteorites have black and blue crust but
>> >>>>> nevertheless
>> >>>> it
>> >>>>> is a find.
>> >>>>> Michael Farmer
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:28 AM, <valparint at aol.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> An "unobserved fall" is, well, a fall that was not observed, in
>> >>>>>> contradistinction to a fall that was observed. The terminology of
>> >>>>>> the Meteoritical Bulletin Database is "Observed fall: no".
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The information being conveyed is NOT that the meteorite fell but
>> >>>> that
>> >>>>>> the fall was not observed.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> In general, the questions about falling and finding are:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 1) was the fall observed?
>> >>>>>> 2) if so, when was it observed?
>> >>>>>> 3) if not, is there any guesstimate of when it fell?
>> >>>>>> 4) regardless of weather it was observed or not, when was it
>> >>>>>> actually found?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Paul Swartz
>> >>>>>> MPOD webmaster
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> What is an "unobserved fall"? Every meteorite fell at some
>> >>>>>>> point. I have thousands of unobserved falls in my collection.
>> >>>>>>> Michael Farmer
>> >>>>> ______________________________________________
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Received on Tue 06 May 2014 06:06:04 PM PDT