[meteorite-list] New BLM Rules

From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks <meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:59:19 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKBPJW99rnGMu=yvEnQH2KS9yxQB3o0jTTNbJZhAObdgdOCf+A_at_mail.gmail.com>

My math sucks. I make no apologies for that. LOL.

It was kindly pointed out to me off-list that I had my math wrong on
the per-gram price of the lunar being auctioned at Heritage.

I think the point is still valid to some extent though, when taking
into account the size of the asking price.



On 9/21/12, ******************> wrote:
> off list -- 1,815 grams for $180k is $100/g.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks
> <meteoritemike at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Jim and List,
>>
>> I think your estimate of 50 professional meteorite hunters in the USA
>> is very generous. I would wager it's even less. The majority of the
>> professional hunters are members of this List. Granted, not all of
>> them post regularly, but the major hunters are well-known. I can
>> count them on two hands and have a couple fingers left over.
>>
>> I guess one could define "professional meteorite hunter" as someone
>> who files taxes and lists their profession on the forms as such. How
>> many people actually earn a sustainable living solely from hunting and
>> finding meteorites? Maybe a dozen.
>>
>> Someone who goes out into the field for the purpose of finding
>> meteorites, and finds some, and then sells a few is not necessarily a
>> commercial or professional hunter. Just because somebody sells the
>> occasional specimen on eBay does not mean they are making a profit,
>> nor does it mean they are a commercial vendor in the commonly-accepted
>> definition of the term.
>>
>> The bonafide pro meteorite hunters reading this can testify that
>> making a profit is hit and miss at best. Most of the time these
>> hunters go out into the field, spend a ton of money in expenses, and
>> come home empty-handed. I know a few people who flew out to Sutter's
>> Mill and spent weeks beating the bush and they didn't find a single
>> fragment. If they find a small frag on the last day of hunting and
>> sell it, does that make that person a professional hunter? Even if
>> they lost thousands of dollars in expenses on the trip and don't sell
>> another find for years or more?
>>
>> This new regulation is not needed. This is hitting a gnat with a
>> sledgehammer, or shooting a rabbit with a bazooka. The government
>> (fed, state, or local) should always err on the side of refraining
>> from new legislation. Of course, as we know, governments rarely do
>> that. The cat is out the bag about the value of meteorites, and the
>> government has tunnel vision - all the bureaucrats are hearing are
>> things like :
>>
>> "A thousand dollars per gram..."
>>
>> "Million dollar meteorite..."
>>
>> And that is all the government cares about. It is up to the meteorite
>> community to stand up and educate them about the truth of the matter -
>> sure, there are meteorites that are "worth" a million dollars or more.
>> But how many have ever sold for any price approaching that extreme?
>> Take the recent offer of the NWA 5000 main mass for example. It's a
>> staggering specimen of unequaled girth, aesthetics, and importance.
>> It's a moon rock the size of a soccerball for crying out loud. Of
>> course it's "worth" more than a million dollars and maybe 10 million
>> or more. But, will it ever sell for that amount of money? Most
>> likely not. I'm sure Adam and Greg wouldn't mind if it did, and I
>> wish them the best of luck with it, but I'll get hit in the head with
>> a new Martian hammer fall before someone will pay $10 million for a
>> meteorite.
>>
>> Take the recent media story about the $380,000 lunar meteorite (DaG
>> 1058) for sale at Heritage. The opening bid is $180,000, or almost
>> $1000 per gram, for a 1815g stone. When is the last time someone paid
>> a per-gram price like that for a stone of that size? The unwritten
>> rule of the meteorite market is - the smaller the specimen, the bigger
>> the per-gram price is. Conversely, the bigger the specimen, the
>> smaller the per-gram price is. Has any professional dealer reading
>> this ever sold a lunar larger than 1000g for $1000 per gram? I doubt
>> it.
>>
>> ---> (Trust me, this going back to government regulating meteorites.)
>>
>> Even if a whale of a collector came along and paid $20 million for a
>> meteorite, that would probably be a singular event and would never be
>> repeated in our lifetimes. Heck, if I win the powerball lottery, I'm
>> gonna buy a slab of pallasite the size of a coffee table, but the
>> government should not judge a "commodity" market based on sales that
>> are anomalies.
>>
>> The government should stay out of the meteorite business. Meteorites
>> are not just another collectible or commodity. Scientists are not
>> clamoring to study gold bars or baseball cards. Meteorites are
>> valuable far beyond their monetary worth. They can unlock for us the
>> mysteries of the cosmos and creation. They are the very building
>> blocks of every planet in the solar system, including Earth. Their
>> importance to science is vast, and due to the circumstances
>> surrounding meteorite hunting, science benefits from collaboration
>> with private individuals.
>>
>> Let's face it, private meteorite hunters have a skillset that eludes
>> most people and they have the FREEDOM to go out and recover stones at
>> will without the need to file paperwork in triplicate beforehand.
>> They can reach a new fall faster than anyone else, including the
>> government. And they can recover stones with the best of the
>> "officially-sanctioned" hunters working on scientific or institutional
>> expeditions. Take one of the most experienced meteorite hunters on
>> this List and send him/her on the next ANSMET expedition. I would
>> wager my money that private hunter will score more finds than the most
>> eagle-eyed grad student : no offense to those good grad students out
>> there doing exciting and important work. (I envy them.)
>>
>> Finding meteorites involves a ton of hard work, countless miles of
>> walking outside in the elements, visiting dangerous remote locales,
>> and a substantial financial investment. By adding additional
>> bureaucratic hurdles to this work, the US government is going down the
>> same road that Australia took - and look where it got them.
>> (plummeting recovery rates)
>>
>> The scientists have a stake in this and they have the respectability
>> to make their voices heard if they join the fray and weigh in to the
>> authorities on the side of deregulation. The collectors and dealers
>> can do the same. Maybe if the people in charge hear the message
>> loudly and coming at them from multiple fronts, then maybe the
>> authorities will listen. (IMCA maybe?)
>>
>> If nothing is done, then this new BLM rule is just the beginning.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> MikeG
>>
>> --
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>> Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
>> Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
>> Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
>> Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone
>> RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/21/12, Jim Wooddell <jimwooddell at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> To the best of my knowledge and from my point of view, the federal
>>> government has never impeded the recovery of meteorites. People have
>>> always assumed 25 pounds per day based on other rules. No one really
>>> had any issue. There has always been internet chatter about whether
>>> it was legal or not, stories that could not be proved. Everyone knew
>>> at anytime they could be challenged in regards to ownership (and still
>>> can be).
>>> So, to say more, not less, is not really correct.
>>> These new rules did clarify the detector use issue.
>>>
>>> So, a question begs..... How many professional meteorite hunters are
>>> in the USA that actively hunt for profit??? I can count the ones I
>>> know on my hands. How many showed up to the recent fall, Battle
>>> Mountain? According the nice report from Larry Atkins, what was
>>> it...about 16 people total? So the BLM is doing this for a few
>>> handfuls of people! At it's best it is silly and an absolute waste of
>>> taxpayer money. I am guessing there are less than 200 "professional"
>>> hunters in the USA and the real number is probably less than 50.
>>>
>>> To think this is an issue that derserves national action is nuts.
>>> They can not enforce the rules they have now clearly, and they are
>>> just piling on more oppressive rules they can not enforce! And if
>>> they nail the wrong guy, it would go to the highest court of the land
>>> and likely get thrown out.
>>> The Old Women case was a joke and not handled well at all by the
>>> defense.
>>>
>>> Kind regards!
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 8:18 AM, Peter Scherff <peterscherff at rcn.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> My understanding of meteorite ownership law in the USA is that
>>>> the
>>>> meteorite belongs to the land owner. In the Old Woman case the
>>>> government
>>>> exercised its right to meteorites found on government land. Meteorite
>>>> hunters have been lucky that the government has not claimed all finds.
>>>> I
>>>> think that the government would have been within the law to do so. So
>>>> this
>>>> new rule gives meteorite hunters an clear right to keep the meteorites
>>>> they
>>>> find (up to 10 pounds). This rule gives meteorite hunters more not less
>>>> rights. It all depends on your point of view.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>>>> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
>>>> Grossman
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 7:06 PM
>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM Rules
>>>>
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> For those of you who don't know, I contribute to this list as a private
>>>> citizen, but I work at NASA headquarters, with duties that extend to
>>>> oversight of curation and research programs. I will be reading all
>>>> posts
>>>> on
>>>> the list pertaining to this issue.
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>> On 9/20/2012 6:37 PM, Jim Wooddell wrote:
>>>>> I have been in communications with the BLM on and off all day. Art,
>>>>> thank for the HTML reminder as I have been trying to post all day and
>>>>> thought I had this set correctly!
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is the first response:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Mr. Wooddell: The application fee is dependent on the time it
>>>>> takes for BLM to process the project proposal in the application. This
>>>>> would be determined by the field office manager after the application
>>>>> is submitted and reviewed. These fees would be estimated for you prior
>>>>> to the processing of the application, and would include monitoring
>>>>> fees as well. The permit application/ permit is 2920-1 attached; fees
>>>>> would be on page 2 when a permit is issued. Some examples of what the
>>>>> fees would be can be found on the following web site and one example
>>>>> is attached. http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/lands.html You
>>>>> mentioned a "nation-wide" permit in your email. BLM issues permits on
>>>>> a local level, and at maximum could be on a state-wide level, for
>>>>> lands that we administer in the Western States. Thank you,Lucia Kuizon
>>>>> ---
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not going to post their second response but they are now aware of
>>>>> some issues that may or may not change the wording.
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel it is imperative for NASA to reach out and support hunters on
>>>>> this issue in regards to the need to hunt fresh falls immediately,
>>>>> without delay of some permit process. While they are claiming media
>>>>> sparked this, most of us knew it was coming, just did not know when or
>>>>> how the wording would be.
>>>>>
>>>>> The current fee structure is twofold. 1. The application / permit.
>>>>> 2. The monitoring fee. Currently the fees will range from ~$100 to
>>>>> ~$1100 for commercial hunters....those seeking profit. This is based
>>>>> on their current cost recovery methods. I have both the application
>>>>> and the fee schedule as example based on the above response. If
>>>>> anyone wants them shoot me a private email.
>>>>>
>>>>> The big issue for hunters is that this will be based on a regional
>>>>> level where each district supervisor may or may not have special
>>>>> conditions, etc. Bottom line is that it will be required to have
>>>>> permits in different hunting areas and could greatly increase overhead
>>>>> for professional hunters. If hunters have to wait for a permit
>>>>> process during a meteor event that produces meteorites, I feel science
>>>>> looses.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Visit the Archives at
>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Visit the Archives at
>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jim Wooddell
>>> jimwooddell at gmail.com
>>> 928-247-2675
>>> ______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Visit the Archives at
>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>>
>> ______________________________________________
>>
>> Visit the Archives at
>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------
Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone
RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
-------------------------------------------------------------

Received on Fri 21 Sep 2012 03:59:19 PM PDT