[meteorite-list] Confusing & Misleading

From: Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 09:19:31 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKBPJW9Lp-iVdkbEbwRzM9hVHD+0Qw-w2o4PQVnExXiSU7tO3Q_at_mail.gmail.com>

Hi Gang,

Two bits from the peanut gallery... I have to agree with Capt. Blood
on this one. From a collector's standpoint, it is a valid term. Is
it officially-accepted nomenclature used in abstracts and journals?
No. Is it a term that relays information about the meteorite? Yes.
This whole dust-up is arguing over the semantics over a non-official
term used in a niche field of meteorite collecting.

I'm a "hammerhead" in the sense Michael describes and Iike the idea
that certain stones were documented to strike interesting or unusual
objects, constructs, and living things. If I can get a piece of the
actual stone that struck something, then that is spectacular. If not,
I'd like to get one of it's brothers or sisters, and acquire a
different specimen from that same fall. This is especially true if
the fall has a really good story behind it. What defines a good
story? Well, it certainly isn't NonCom. It's all the collectors,
rich and poor, that pay the dealers and decide what they want to
collect.

Maybe the fall took place on grandma's birthday. Maybe the fall
bopped some kid under a banana tree. Maybe the fall walloped a car.
Maybe a piece of it was used as a tool. Maybe it has some
"historical" value (also subjective). Maybe it showered thousands of
tiny peas and stones over an entire settled area. Maybe it took place
on the same day and month (but different year) of a spouse's birthday.
 Or, perhaps it's a rare type (again, subjective). Maybe it fills a
hole in a type collection.....or geographic collection.....or
aesthetic collection.

This is not about grading diamonds.....not yet.

Want to get technical? What is "crusted" and what is "90% crusted" or
"50% crusted" ?? Unless a stone is accurately measured with a
precision measuring device, the surface area accurately calculated,
and the surface area of crust calculated, then any description of a
stone as such is subjective and not accurate either. Maybe that 50%
crusted stone is actually 40% crusted, or 60% crusted, or 30%.
Different eyes have different ways of describing what they collect or
sell, and the vast majority of the terms used to describe meteorites
are subjective at best.

I've seen experienced people who should know better, describe stones
as "crusted" and there is no fusion crust at all - not even remnant
crust. The term "crusted" is often used to described desert varnish,
wind polish, or both in the same stone. That term gets used a lot
more than "hammer fall" and it's much more misleading.

Or, let's wade into the realm of describing "oriented" stones. There
is a pandora's box of subjective and potentially-misleading
terminology if one ever existed. And even a spirited description of
orientation features (present or imagined) will increase the monetary
value of a specimen by 3x, 5x or more.

Or, one could address the big invisible 500-pound gorilla in the
corner of the room - geography and legalities. You can hear a pin
drop and see tumbleweeds drift by when a discussion digs too deep into
where certain specimens come from and how they entered the private
market. Again, there are a ton of stories there you won't find
documented anywhere online. Some good, some bad, some funny, some not
funny, some interesting...

Lastly, there are some "characters" in the meteorite world. We all
know some. We've all dealt with some. We have good stories and we
have bad stories. But the good stories make meteorites much more
interesting than any other "collectible" (subjective) for collectors
of such things - let's leave it at that and not get our blood pressure
up over such things. (there's the pot calling the kettle black, eh?)

There is room for hammerheads in the collectible world. Science
doesn't have to use the term, or a particular person doesn't have to
use it. But it can still hold value to some people.

Best regards and keep on collectin' (hammers or not),

MikeG

On 6/10/12, Michael Blood <mlblood at cox.net> wrote:
> Dear Eric, Greg & Mike,
>
> Please see Meteorite Market Trends in this month's METEORITE TIMES
> For commentary as to the meaning and validity of the term "hammer fall:"
>
> http://michaelbloodmeteorites.com/MMT.html
>
> Denying the that term "hammer fall" holds meaning is like me
> stating
> that abstract paintings are not really art, because they hold no meaning
> for
> ME.
>
> If you are still confused, both my Hammer pages have the definition of
> hammer fall clearly stated at the tops of the pages:
>
> http://michaelbloodmeteorites.com/Hammers1.html
> http://michaelbloodmeteorites.com/Hammers2.html
>
> However, the article above is more to the point as to the rationale
> you presented.
>
> Best regards, Michael
>
>
>
> On 5/15/12 11:13 AM, "Meteorite-Hunting.com"
> <contact at meteorite-hunting.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Let's cut through the semantics. No amount of semantics will change the
> fact
>> that the phrase "Hammer Fall" is confusing and misleading.
>
> The nomenclature
>> is simple.
>
> Hammer = Correct
> Hammer Fall = Misleading, confusing, and an
>> incorrect use of the term.
>
> It's really not that
>> complicated.
>
> Regards,
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5/14/2012 10:05 PM, Shawn Alan wrote:
>> I
>> am going to say my words and leave it at that on this Hammer Fall Stone
>> Fall
>> Hammer man made hitting meteorite definition....
>>
>> As for the Hammer Stone
>> Fall phase, I guess I did morph it by accident from Michael Bloods phase
>> which
>> is Hammer Fall, for some reason I thought he used Hammer Stone Fall but I
>> checked and its worded as Hammer Fall when a stone from the fall hits a
>> man
>> made object. The Sutter's Mill meteorite fall is a Hammer Fall because one
>> of
>> the stones from that fall hit a man made object. That stone that hit the
>> man
>> made object is called a Hammer Stone, and I can see the confusion and
>> thats
>> why I changed it to Hammer Fall. So by Michael's definition when a
>> meteorite
>> hits a man made object that meteorite fall is a METEORITE HAMMER FALL.
>>
>>
>> Documented Hammer Falls
>> Sylacauge
>> Barbotan
>> L Aigle
>> Weston
>> Park
>> Forest
>> Paltusk
>> Barwell
>> and now Sutter's Mill
>>
>> From Micheal's
>> website
>>
>> 1). "Hammer" - any
>> individual which is part of a hammer
>> fall
>> in which one or more of the
>> individuals struck an
>> artifact, animal or
>> human.....
>> Most of us hammer heads, however,
>> will collect
>> what is
>> available from any hammer fall, though, of course,
>> hammer stones,
>> themselves,
>> will be most valued."
>>
>> Shawn Alan
>> IMCA 1633
>> eBay Store
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/sch/ph0t0phl0w/m.html?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [meteorite-list] AD: MURRAY, LA002 Mars meteorite, NWA2999, Barbotan man
>>
>> killer meteorite, LUCE', Forest City, Barwell& more meteorites ending
>> on>
>> eBay soon!
>> eric at meteoritesusa.com eric
>> at meteoritesusa.com
>> Mon May
>> 14 13:46:01 EDT 2012
>> * Previous message: [meteorite-list] AD: MURRAY,
>> LA002
>> Mars meteorite, NWA2999, Barbotan man killer meteorite, LUCE', Forest
>> City,
>> Barwell& more meteorites ending on eBay soon!
>> * Next
>> message: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of
>> the Day
>> * Messages
>> sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject
>> ] [ author ]
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> The use of the word "Hammer"
>> when
>> referencing/advertising meteorites,
>> should only be used to describe
>> an
>> actual stone which hit an artifact
>> (man made object).
>>
>> Using the
>> word
>> "Hammer" or Hammer Fall" in advertisements to sell stones
>> that are
>> not
>> actual Hammer-Stones is misleading and confusing,
>> especially to new
>>
>> collectors. It can cause much more confusion later
>> when those pieces are
>>
>> resold to other meteorite collectors because an
>> inexperienced collector
>> may
>> say it is a fragment of a hammer stone, not
>> understanding the
>> difference
>> between the terms "hammer stone" and
>> "hammer fall".
>>
>> An easy
>> remedy
>> for this, is to NEVER use the words "Hammer Fall" in
>>
>> advertisements. It's
>> misleading, and confusing. Period.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/14/2012 10:10 AM, Anita Westlake wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks right,
>> Steve. I own a quarter of a slice from the core from THE
>>> meteorite that hit
>> Mrs. Hodges.
>>> There is a guy on this list who continues to call his
>>
>> non-hammer Hodges
>>
>>> meteorite The Sylacauga stone even after
>> he was
>> reported to the I.M.C.A. for
>>
>>> misleading the public.
>> For that reason
>> alone, I will never buy anything from
>>
>>> him.
>> Yes, it is part of the
>> Sylacauga fall, but not the house-hitter. I would
>>
>>> venture to guess that
>> most of the public would not know the
>> difference, and
>>
>>> that's what he's
>> counting on!
>>> Anita
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: "meteorhntr at
>>
>> aol.com"<meteorhntr at
>> aol.com>
>>
>>> To: Michael Farmer<mike at
>>
>> meteoriteguy.com>;
>>
>>> meteorite-list-bounces
>> at meteoritecentral.com;
>> Shawn Alan<photophlow at
>> yahoo.com>
>>
>>> Cc: meteoritelist
>> meteoritelist<meteorite-list at
>> meteoritecentral.com>
>>
>>> Sent: Mon, May
>> 14, 2012
>> 11:30:10 AM
>>
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] AD: MURRAY, LA002
>>
>> Mars meteorite, NWA2999,
>>
>>> Barbotan man killer meteorite,
>> LUCE', Forest
>> City, Barwell& more meteorites
>>
>>> ending on
>> eBay soon!
>>
>>> Mike and
>> all,
>>> I agree with you the marketing "Such and
>> Such Hammer Fall" is very
>> often
>>
>>> misleading and if such a
>> term is ever used, I think there should
>> be an obvious
>>
>>> express disclaimer that the piece being purchase is NOT
>> from the one that
>>> actually hit the object, unless of course there is
>>
>> documentation to prove that
>>
>>> it is from that specimen. I
>> would think the
>> F.T.C. would agree.
>>
>>> However, I do want to correct you on one thing Dr.
>> King was able to secure a few
>>> grams of THE Sylacaga hammer that hit Mrs.
>> Hodges via a core
>> sample taken from
>>
>>> it. His records showed it did NOT
>> come
>> from the Smithsonian's specimen but
>>
>>> rather the museum that
>> held
>> it back in the 1960's. This was only a few grams
>>
>>> total
>> and was sold to
>> the market back in 1999.
>>
>>> The provenance should be strong with those
>> pieces, and that data should have
>>> been passed on for the lucky few that
>> have a piece.
>> Personally I would think
>>
>>> they should have a very
>> significant
>> premium over the "Non-Hammer Syclaga"
>>
>>> pieces. A side
>> note,
>> due to the core shape, "full slices" of the core will be
>>
>>> coin
>> shaped and part slices should have at least part of the edge in a arch.
>>>
>> Steve Arnold
>>> Host of
>> Meteorite Men
>>
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless
>> BlackBerry
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Michael Farmer<mike at
>>
>> meteoriteguy.com>
>>
>>> Sender: meteorite-list-bounces
>> at
>> meteoritecentral.com
>>
>>> Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 22:39:54
>>> To: Shawn
>> Alan<photophlow at
>> yahoo.com>
>>
>>> Cc: meteoritelist
>> meteoritelist<meteorite-list at
>> meteoritecentral.com>
>>
>>> Subject: Re:
>> [meteorite-list]
>> AD: MURRAY, LA002 Mars meteorite, NWA2999,
>>
>>> Barbotan
>> man
>> killer meteorite, LUCE', Forest City,
>>
>>> Barwell& more
>> meteorites
>> ending on eBay soon!
>>
>>> Except
>> the sylacaga
>>
>>> Stone which hit the woman
>> is actually in
>> Alabama. The pieces of sylacaga in
>>
>>> collections are from
>> the
>> larger stone found later in a road. So actually none of
>>
>>> the
>>
>> private collections contain the woman hitting stone.
>>
>>> Otherwise having
>> trouble following your post.
>>> Michael Farmer
>>> Sent
>> from my iPhone
>>
>>>
>> On May 13, 2012, at 10:36
>> PM, Shawn Alan<photophlow at
>> yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Now thats
>> some proof :) and a hammer stone I think would turn
>> heads from the
>>
>>>> Sutter's Mill HAMMER STONE FALL. I bet when its said
>> and
>> done, there will be
>>
>>>> more of stones found on top of
>> builds and
>> roofs within the area the meteorite
>>
>>>> fell
>> because of it fragmenting in
>> the atmosphere, only time will tell. But for
>>
>>>> those of you that collect
>> hammer stones or meteorite
>> from HAMMER STONE FALLS the
>>
>>>> Sylacauge I
>> would say is the
>> king of all HAMMER STONE FALLS just for the fact
>>
>>>>
>> two
>> stone came from that fall, making one a hammer stone as apposed to
>> Sutter's
>>
>>>> Mill HAMMER STONE FALL were there has been over 60
>> individual
>> stones and
>>
>>>> fragments found so far and more
>> being documented. So in a
>> since the probability
>>
>>>> of a
>> hammer stone will be alot higher than from
>> Sylacauge HAMMER STONE FALL.
>>
>>>> Shawn
>> Alan
>>
>>>> IMCA 1633
>>>> eBay
>> store
>>>> http://www.ebay.com/sch/ph0t0phl0w/m.html?
>>>>
>> http://www.meteoritefalls.com/
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From:
>> Dan Miller<dannyspl12 at
>> gmail.com>
>>
>>>> To: Michael Farmer<mike at
>>
>> meteoriteguy.com>
>>
>>>> Cc: Shawn Alan<photophlow at
>> yahoo.com>;
>> meteoritelist meteoritelist
>>
>>>> <meteorite-list at
>>
>> meteoritecentral.com>
>>
>>>> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 1:23 AM
>>>> Subject:
>> Re:
>> [meteorite-list] AD: MURRAY, LA002 Mars meteorite, NWA2999,
>>
>>>>
>> Barbotan man killer meteorite, LUCE', Forest City,
>> Barwell& more
>> meteorites
>>
>>>> ending on eBay soon!
>>>> List
>>>> There is another hammer
>> stone
>> but the owner and her husband have not gone
>>
>>>> public yet.
>> They
>> will next week when she gets back home. This one embedded
>>
>>>> itself on her
>> shed and she has the mark to prove it. I
>> will have them contact
>>
>>>>
>> Michael Gilmer and Peter J.
>>>> On Sun,
>> May 13, 2012 at 4:25 PM, Michael
>> Farmer<mike at
>> meteoriteguy.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Why does everyone keep
>> putting hammer-stone in their descriptions? You do not
>>>> have piece of the
>> hammer-stone, so putting it in the
>> auction title implies that
>>
>>>> you are
>> selling a piece of
>> the house hitting meteorite when you are not.
>> Please
>>
>>>> correct the auction to inform the buyers that they are NOT buying
>> a piece of the
>>>> house hitting Sutter's Mill specimen.
>>>>> Just because a
>> single piece of this meteorite hit a
>> house, does not mean every
>>
>>>>> gram
>> of the meteorite
>> found can be considered a "hammer". That is a scam to
>> rip
>>
>>>>> people off.
>>>>> People, this
>> is why you MUST know and trust your
>> seller. Greg Hupe and I have
>>
>>>>> already been contacted by several known
>> scammers
>> trying to buy pieces of our
>>
>>>>> meteorite. We are not
>>
>> responding. We put a premium price on the unquestionably
>>
>>>>> documented
>> meteorite which hit the house, was seen
>> on BBC live and is not
>>
>>>>>
>> disputed by anyone. Don't be
>> fooled by people selling you other
>> material
>>
>>>>> coat-tailing our specimen. We kept record of every speck sold
>> and can trace
>>>>> them back to the buyers.
>>>>> A meteorite of this rarity is
>> likely to attract some unscrupulous sellers, know
>>>>> your source!
>>>>>
>> Michael
>> Farmer
>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>> On May 13, 2012, at 3:47 PM,
>> Shawn Alan<photophlow at
>> yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Hello Listers,
>>>>>>
>> Thank you for taking a look at my post of
>> meteorites
>>
>>>>>> I have for sale
>> on eBay. Here is your
>> chance to own some rare and historic
>>
>>>>>>
>> meteorites.
>> Please take a look and if you have any questions or
>> OFFERS
>>
>>>>>> please email me and I?ll get back with you. Also
>> if you are
>> looking for
>>
>>>>>> bigger/smaller
>> meteorites, let me know too. A meteorite
>> is a meteorite, but
>>
>>>>>> a meteorite with history and a legacy, will
>>
>> always add aura to your
>>
>>>>>> meteorite collection and
>> value.
>>
>>>>>>
>> eBay
>> store
>>
>>>>>> http://www.ebay.com/sch/ph0t0phl0w/m.html?
>>>>>> Featured
>> Auctions
>>>>>> MURRAY Ultra
>> Rare CM2 Meteorite 70 Amino Acids Polyols SUGARS
>> - ASU
>>
>>>>> Collection.
>>>>>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251057932082?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m
>> 1555.l2649
>>>>>> 9
>>>>>> SUTTER?S MILL Meteorite - Ultra Rare CA. USA CM
>>
>> Hammer Stone Fall-April 22,
>>
>>>>>> 2011
>>>>>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251061801904?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m
>> 1555.l2649
>>>>>> 9
>>>>>> LUCE' meteorite - France 1768 very rare historic
>>
>> fall - 1st analyzed
>>
>>>>> meteorite!
>>>>>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261021512470?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m
>> 1555.l2649
>>>>>> 9
>>>>>> JILIN meteorite deemed as scientifically
>> important&
>> largest stony
>>
>>>>>> meteorite!
>>>>>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261021517495?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m
>> 1555.l2649
>>>>>> 9
>>>>>> BARBOTAN rare historic meteorite fall -1790
>> France
>> - Killed a Man!
>>
>>>>>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251057927992?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m
>> 1555.l2649
>>>>>> 9
>>>>>> LOS ANGELES 002 Martian/Mars meteorite 2nd USA
>> Mars
>> find!
>>
>>>>>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261020758264?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m
>> 1555.l2649
>>>>>> 9
>>>>>> FOREST CITY meteorite 1890 historic fall -1st
>> COURT
>> CASE BATTLE!
>>
>>>>>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251057926098?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m
>> 1555.l2649
>>>>>> 9
>>>>>> BARWELL meteorite Christmas meteorite
>> fall/shower
>> UK 1965- Hammer Fall.
>>
>>>>>> NHM-UCLA
>>>>>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261020753053?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m
>> 1555.l2649
>>>>>> 9
>>>>>> Pe?a Blanca Spring meteorite rare aubrite 1946
>>
>> fall
>>
>>>>>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251058811484?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m
>> 1555.l2649
>>>>>> 9
>>>>>> NAKHLA Martian/Mars meteorite - 1911 Fall-SUPER
>>
>> RARE! KING OF MARTIAN
>>
>>>>>> METEORITES
>>>>>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261021523522?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m
>> 1555.l2649
>>>>>> 9
>>>>>> NWA 2999 rare Angrite meteorite suggested from
>>
>> MERCURY!
>>
>>>>>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251057928942?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m
>> 1555.l2649
>>>>>> 9
>>>>>> Shawn Alan
>>>>>> eBay Store
>>>>>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/sch/ph0t0phl0w/m.html?
>>>>>>
>> http://www.meteoritefalls.com/
>>>>>>
>> ______________________________________________
>>>>>> Visit the
>> Archives
>> at
>>
>>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>>>>>>
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>>>>>> Meteorite-list at
>>
>> meteoritecentral.com
>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>> ________________________________
>>
>>
>> * Previous message:
>> [meteorite-list] AD: MURRAY, LA002
>> Mars meteorite, NWA2999, Barbotan man
>> killer meteorite, LUCE', Forest City,
>> Barwell& more meteorites ending on
>> eBay soon!
>> * Next message: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of
>>
>> the Day
>> * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject
>> ] [
>> author ]
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Received on Sun 10 Jun 2012 09:19:31 AM PDT