[meteorite-list] Etching solution msds ferric chloride

From: Steve Dunklee <steve.dunklee_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:37:46 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1327725466.84390.YahooMailClassic_at_web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925886

also may cause laurancite disease in irons or uncontrolled rusting


cheers
steve







--- On Sat, 1/28/12, Steve Dunklee <steve.dunklee at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Steve Dunklee <steve.dunklee at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
> To: markig at westnet.com, Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 2:59 AM
> http://multietch.com/
> cheers
>
>
> --- On Sat, 1/28/12, Steve Dunklee <steve.dunklee at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Steve Dunklee <steve.dunklee at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
> > To: markig at westnet.com,
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com,
> "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> > Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 2:52 AM
> >? hi! cheers!
> > Steve Dunklee
> > http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925886
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/28/12, MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
> > > To: markig at westnet.com,
> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > > Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 12:46 AM
> > > Hi Mark,
> > >
> > > "Would appreciate a reference for the nickel
> chloride
> > being
> > > 15 times
> > > more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate."
> > >
> > > That's not what I wrote although it could be true
> I
> > have no
> > > such reference to support the above.
> > >
> > > What I did write was:
> > >
> > > "Only Nickel chloride (a result of ferric
> chloride
> > etching)
> > > is carcinogenic at levels
> > > 15 times lower than those produced from nitric
> acid
> > > etching."
> > >
> > > There is a huge difference between what you
> understood
> > and
> > > what I actually wrote as threshhold toxicity
> levels
> > don't
> > > necessarily equate to activity factors.? This is
> > > because the body has dozens of competing
> homeostatic
> > > (metabolic, immune/allergic, etc.) processes that
> > relate to
> > > detoxification and an imbalance occurs when that
> one
> > single
> > > straw to many put on the camel breaks its back.
> > >
> > > The reference should be any MSDS (Material Safety
> Data
> > > Sheet), just check whichever one you have access
> to or
> > dig
> > > up first.
> > >
> > > Toxicology, especially when it comes to
> carcinogens is
> > so
> > > complex that I don't think anyone understands it,
> or
> > they
> > > would already gotten a billion buck grant from the
> NIH
> > by
> > > now.? It just comes in many small pieces.? I
> share
> > > your opinion that we should reference and I'm
> sorry if
> > I
> > > just dumped all this information for discussion,
> but it
> > was
> > > more useful that keeping i to myself.? I've not
> found
> > a
> > > reasonable layman's treatise anywhere on the
> subject so
> > I
> > > figured the met list was as good as it gets
> without
> > opening
> > > yet another research project to compete with the
> other
> > ones
> > > I've got floundering.
> > >
> > > Anyway, the exposure limits I mention I believe
> are for
> > lab
> > > rats approximating other mammals, like humans.?
> > Again,
> > > the more you get into this the more it's hard to
> > muzzle
> > > oneself becasue now we're getting further into
> it:
> > >
> > > so - must ask, can you breath it in (probably not
> in
> > most
> > > cases, but definiely cover your mouth, eyes, and
> any
> > other
> > > open oriface such as a wound when doing this.?
> That
> > > should be 'common knowledge' but really if doing
> it for
> > the
> > > first time, maybe not.
> > >
> > > and - must ask, so how permeable is the skin to it
> ...
> > > becasue if one has a 15X lower threshhold but is
> 15x
> > more
> > > difficult to uptake, then we'd have a wash.?
> Then
> > there
> > > are solubility issues, but these both look like
> they
> > are
> > > well soluble, just a glance at the MSDS will
> answer
> > that.
> > >
> > > last here, but definitely not any closure, is;
> what's
> > the
> > > significance of getting these things into ones
> local
> > > envoironment and the general environment (waters,
> > soils,
> > > air, etc.).? We don't think about this but doing
> it
> > out
> > > on the concrete patio outside of the kitchen and
> > tossing the
> > > waste into the immediate area, it will dry and
> become
> > > particulate contaminants which over time the wind
> will
> > > distribute in the lungs of little boys playing
> there,
> > > through the kitchen window, etc.? Probably no
> big
> > deal
> > > in most cases, but there is always that one case
> that
> > > something goes terribly wrong.? And getting back
> to
> > the
> > > maximum 'permissible' exposure limit (sheesh, now
> to
> > add
> > > residence time, cumulative properties in the body,
> it's
> > head
> > > spinning).
> > >
> > > Which is why, in this case for a rat which is
> assumed
> > to
> > > react as a human (but may not), at least we can
> point
> > a
> > > finger at the threshold of toxicity, which itself
> is a
> > a
> > > single point determined after half of the
> subjects
> > have
> > > croaked, illustrating that half are just fine
> whereas
> > it is
> > > toxic to half of them at even lower levels, or
> > something
> > > along tose lines.
> > >
> > > As for your other reference of isopropyl vs.
> ethyl
> > alcohols
> > > and explosion hazards, I'm sorry but perhaps
> someone
> > else
> > > has more time to develop this properly vs. this
> > informal
> > > discussion forum.? If I had time and a full lab,
> I
> > > would start by maing a ternary diagram of the two
> > alcohols
> > > and nitric acid, and plot the flash point of the
> > mixture for
> > > starters.? The information I saw was anecdotal
> and
> > not
> > > rigorous nor very quantitative.? However I don't
> > hacve
> > > time to spend on this subject any more due to
> personal
> > > circumstances and recommend that you try
> googling.?
> > > This is not a case of a proving beyond a
> reasonable
> > doubt
> > > that it is more explosive.? However there are
> enough
> > > warnings out there thaty would seem to suggest
> more
> > violent
> > > and higher incidence of isopropanol-HNO3 mixtures
> than
> > the
> > > EtOH analog, since we are talking about personal
> > > safety.? Clearly Isopropyl alcohol is similar
> > > inproperties relating to etching that given the
> more
> > > widespread use in general metallurgy of EtOH, it's
> the
> > devil
> > > we know better
> > >
> > > I'm convinced of the Isopropanol/ethanol issue all
> I
> > need to
> > > be more vigilant.? But that doesn't mean I
> wouldn't
> > use
> > > it if there was some reason to do that.? Rather
> than
> > > obsessing too much over a terribly complex issue
> and
> > coming
> > > to the same inconclusion, I'd just make simple,
> yet
> > > effective modifications to my procedure -
> > > Why deal with comncentrated nitric in a home
> > environment at
> > > all?? How silly!? You (general) want to save a
> few
> > > pennies at your own risk, pennywise --- just have
> the
> > > Hazardous Materials emergency number handy.?
> > Otherwise
> > > buy the diluted acid= problem significantly
> > minimized.?
> > > You want to make etchant?? Don't make such a
> large
> > > amount in a bottle/beaker at once.? Don't use
> such an
> > > excess when etching, experiment by painting it on
> with
> > a
> > > brush instead - problem significantly minimuzed
> ... and
> > so
> > > on.
> > >
> > > Hope this gives better insight.? Having THE
> answer to
> > > these things is too tall an order, yet experience
> and
> > common
> > > sense are why other individuals can etch more
> easily
> > than
> > > making scrambled eggs.? Our appreciation of risk
> is
> > > terribly distorted.? Once I was in a discussion
> with
> > > Sterling sopmewhere discussing this and he even
> > referenced
> > > someplace, proabbly wiki the bias I described had
> a
> > > name.? You know, the same one that evaluates
> whether
> > to
> > > be frightened from falling asteroids vs. driving
> to
> > work in
> > > the morning.? I'm still waiting for the thriller
> > movie,
> > > "Highway jaunt" where no rogue asteroids or
> murderous
> > > psychopats pass by, but Strawberry Shortcake girl
> just
> > takes
> > > her car for a spin and suddenly every individual
> in
> > the
> > > traffic stream has a compulsion to run over her on
> her
> > sweet
> > > bicycle.? Point of the dumb example being the
> high
> > risk
> > > we have experience has much lower fear factor than
> the
> > > almost non-existent risk which ends in carnage
> and
> > mahem,
> > > even if a decision tree analysis shows that the
> > friendly
> > > risk is a million times more likely.
> > >
> > > Kindest wsihes
> > > Doug
> > >
> > > PS I have stretched too much to participate in
> this
> > give
> > > some other difficult responsibilities I ahve at
> the
> > m,oment
> > > so I did my best and will likely retire for a
> while to
> > catch
> > > up on things.
> > >
> > > PPS, After all this, I think my new etchant of
> choice
> > will
> > > be Coca Cola.? No doubt it works or can be
> tweaked
> > to,
> > > too.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Mark Grossman <markig at westnet.com>
> > > To: nf114ec <nf114ec at npgcable.com>;
> > > meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>;
> > > MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> > > Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 6:20 pm
> > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Couple of thoughts.
> > >
> > > Mark's Law:
> > >
> > > If you're standing in the exact same spot as
> someone
> > else
> > > when a mixture of
> > > nitric acid and ethanol explodes, the
> sensitivities of
> > the
> > > two individuals
> > > to harm are always the same. :-)
> > >
> > > Both nickel chloride and nickel nitrate are
> soluble
> > nickel
> > > compounds, and as
> > > far as carcinogenicity goes, the American
> Conference
> > of
> > > Governmental
> > > Industrial Hygienists and the International Agency
> for
> > > Research on Cancer
> > > group the two compounds together.? As far as I
> am
> > > aware, there was no
> > > singling out of nickel chloride as being 15 times
> more
> > > carcinogenic than
> > > nickel nitrate - you indicated both are products
> of
> > etching
> > > - one from
> > > ferric chloride and the other from nitric acid.?
> The
> > > insoluble oxides of
> > > nickel are more carcinogenic, but that's not the
> > compounds
> > > you are referring
> > > to.? Would appreciate a reference for the nickel
> > > chloride being 15 times
> > > more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate.
> > >
> > > Similarly, would appreciate a reference to
> isopropyl
> > alcohol
> > > being more
> > > dangerous to use for etching with nitric acid
> than
> > ethanol,
> > > under the same
> > > set of conditions.? Why is isopropyl alcohol
> more
> > prone
> > > to a "freak"
> > > explosion or "blow up" than ethanol?? Explosions
> with
> > > concentrated nitric
> > > acid and ethanol are well-documented.
> > >
> > > Now I am not relying on Wikipedia as an academic
> > reference,
> > > but I think the
> > > information contained on the webpage is worthy of
> > discussion
> > > and/or
> > > criticism.? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nital and the mention of
> > > the
> > > hazards associated with 5 and 10 percent
> solutions.?
> > > This information
> > > appears to come from Bretherick, which is a
> pretty
> > good
> > > chemical reference
> > > that I have used in the past (see
> > > http://www.ab.ust.hk/hseo/tips/ls/ls005.htm).
> > >
> > > Reading Material Safety Data Sheets should always
> be
> > > required - but realize
> > > that many are inadequate and often do not list or
> spell
> > out
> > > the safety
> > > precautions which should be employed.
> > >
> > > A lot of technical information was contained in
> the
> > last few
> > > emails, and if
> > > we all agree that respect for chemicals is
> critical,
> > then it
> > > would be useful
> > > to confirm the facts.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > Mark Grossman
> > > Meteorite Manuscripts
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> > > To: <nf114ec at npgcable.com>;
> > > <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:02 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Jim,
> > > >
> > > > My respects to all the ferric chloride lovers
> out
> > there
> > > and
> > > especially Ron
> > > > Hartman, bless him.? A blanket statement of
> a
> > > "better etch" is pretty
> > > > meaningless.? I recall asking Arcady who had
> all
> > > the Seymchan several
> > > > years back why all of his specimens were
> etched
> > so
> > > deeply that they
> > > looked
> > > > like someone chiseled the etch into them and
> then
> > put
> > > on a matte
> > > > clearcoat.? He said, the customers prefer a
> deep
> > > etch.? I thought it
> > > was
> > > > butt ugly (not to mention a more discrete
> etching
> > such
> > > as by mild
> > > nitric
> > > > acid's slow action introduces far less
> nucleation
> > sites
> > > for
> > > oxidation).
> > > > There are so many factors.
> > > >
> > > > If the iron chloride etch were better it
> wouldn't
> > hurt
> > > to send those
> > > > conclusions to the Smithsonian, British
> Museum,
> > Weiner
> > >
> > > Naturhistorisches
> > > > Museum, Max-Planck-Institut f?r Chemie (or
> > whatever
> > > its called now)
> > > > Collection, Paris Mus?um National
> d'Histoire
> > > Naturelle, etc. for
> > > comment.
> > > > ;-)
> > > >
> > > > BTW, there are many variables not realated to
> the
> > etch
> > > to consider.
> > > > Though ferric chloride is 'easier', when it
> comes
> > to
> > > mixing up, it
> > > doesn't
> > > > mean it is less toxic in other ways.? Ever
> > wonder
> > > if it was legal or
> > > smart
> > > > to pour spent solution down the drain or into
> the
> > > soils? Nickel
> > > chloride
> > > > and nickel nitrate (produced in etching) are
> both
> > > mutagenic.? Only
> > > Nickel
> > > > chloride (a result of ferric chloride
> etching) is
> > > carcinogenic at
> > > levels
> > > > 15 times lower than those produced from
> nitric
> > acid
> > > etching.? But
> > > with all
> > > > the other heavy metal ions in iron
> meteorites,
> > again,
> > > respect for the
> > > > chemical is important regardless of what
> risks
> > are
> > > perceived - it's
> > > never
> > > > the full story and like smoking, everyone
> doesn't
> > even
> > > have equal
> > > > sensitivity.
> > > >
> > > > Kindest wishes
> > > > Douh
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Jim Wooddell <nf114ec at npgcable.com>
> > > > To: Meteorite-List <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > > > Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 6:48 am
> > > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching
> solution
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I believe there was an article by Hartman a
> few
> > years
> > > back about the
> > > use
> > > > of
> > > > ferric chloride.? The conclusion was that
> it
> > gave
> > > a better etch???? I
> > > > think
> > > > it was in Meteorite-Times.
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jim Wooddell
> > > > http://k7wfr
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> > > > To: <mexicodoug at aim.com>;
> > > <markig at westnet.com>;
> > > > <meteoritesnorth at hotmail.ca>;
> > > <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > > > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:49 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching
> solution
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> "Besides water, I'm suspecting Nitric +
> > acetone
> > > (Nitkeytone ?) and
> > > > any
> > > >> number of other solvents would work"
> > > >>
> > > >> OK, don'rt bother with this one!? I
> just
> > did;
> > > It actually etches, but
> > > >> leaves a yucky finish.? The fumes are
> no
> > worse
> > > than other nitals,
> > > > though I
> > > >> wouldn't want to breath much of them
> until I
> > knew
> > > more; but there
> > > > didn't
> > > >> seem to be any decomposition.? I used
> > reagent
> > > grade acetone to avoid
> > > >> possibly nasty impurities, and the
> nitric
> > acid
> > > concentration only
> > > > 3.9%
> > > >> just in case I hit a flash point, full
> face
> > shield
> > > and a fan venting
> > > > right
> > > >> out the door.? Nice to have had an 81 F
> day
> > > today and still its warm
> > > >> enough to open the door ;-) nice etch,
> > terrible
> > > residue.
> > > >>
> > > >> Kindest wishes
> > > >> Doug
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> > > >> To: markig <markig at westnet.com>;
> > > meteoritesnorth
> > > >> <meteoritesnorth at hotmail.ca>;
> > > meteorite-list
> > > >> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > > >> Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 3:11 am
> > > >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching
> > solution
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> "explosive"
> > > >>
> > > >> Definitely caution when playing around
> with
> > > corrosives is of the
> > > first
> > > >> order...that said,
> > > >>
> > > >> sure, ethanol is a racing car engine fuel
> and
> > under
> > > the right
> > > >> conditions can combust; But people drink
> it
> > even
> > > straight...
> > > >>
> > > >> Many things we do have risks associated
> with
> > them
> > > some very serious
> > > > and
> > > >> definitely we must respect all reagents
> > especially
> > > corrosives like
> > > >> nitric acid.? For example, many people
> enjoy
> > > fireworks.? Yet,
> > > > fireworks
> > > >> are explosive and dangerous if you put
> them
> > near
> > > sparks or heat,or
> > > try
> > > >> to light them with a charcoal grill.?
> And
> > > obviously gasoline combusts
> > > >> too yet mechanics and Dads everywhere use
> it
> > to
> > > clean hands and metal
> > > >> parts and also have arc welders nearby.?
> Or
> > > sulfuric acid inside a
> > > car
> > > >> battery - don't get it on your bikini
> when
> > working
> > > on the car!? If
> > > you
> > > >> are going to use anything, it needs to be
> done
> > with
> > > respect and a
> > > > quick
> > > >> read of the MSDS of whatever chemicals
> you
> > are
> > > using... (and don't
> > > >> trust everything you read on a
> discussion
> > l;ist
> > > posted at 3 AM)
> > > >>
> > > >> It is not a good idea to have
> concentrated
> > nitric
> > > acid and ignore the
> > > >> label, for example and my heart goes out
> to
> > Anita
> > > on that.? Depends
> > > > the
> > > >> kind of person you are.? When I make my
> > > smoothie in the morning I use
> > > >> fresh cherries as one of 18-20
> ingredients and
> > a
> > > preparation that
> > > > takes
> > > >> an hour.? It's life threatening if I
> > > accidentally put a pit in my
> > > >> blender (which can easily liquify
> meteorites,
> > it's
> > > so powerful) due
> > > to
> > > >> the specialized needs of a family member
> who
> > cannot
> > > eat.? So I double
> > > >> count the cherries first, count the pits
> as I
> > punch
> > > them out, and
> > > then
> > > >> count them once again when I dispose of
> > them.?
> > > No shortcuts, All
> > > > common
> > > >> sense!
> > > >>
> > > >> Bart Simpson's pet python once made nital
> in
> > an
> > > episode of The
> > > >> Simpsons, which is amusing if you haven't
> had
> > a bad
> > > experience you
> > > >> can't laugh about.... I think the
> writers
> > were
> > > Caltech rejects that
> > > > had
> > > >> to go to MIT and have to do this to
> humor
> > > themselves, this wasn't the
> > > >> only snarky chemistry episode.
> > > >>
> > > >> (episode: Stop or my Dog will Shoot!)
> > > >>
> > > >> Here's the link:
> > > >>
> > > >> http://video.i.ua/user/810302/8185/35583/
> > > >>
> > > >> it take a little time to stream, but
> once
> > ready the
> > > scene is at the
> > > >> 17:49 minute:seconds mark.
> > > >>
> > > >> ... and that' why in my summary which I
> did
> > much
> > > too quickly to be
> > > >> complete, I suggest that you use water,
> that
> > is to
> > > say, NitH20,. or
> > > as
> > > >> it's commonly known just dilute Nitric
> Acid,
> > rather
> > > tha alcohols to
> > > >> develop your method.? Nothing wrong
> with
> > > water, it is really getting
> > > a
> > > >> bum wrap and it is GRAS ;-)? It is what
> > > everyone that is using FeCl3
> > > > is
> > > >> using as a diluent, too.? For the HNO3
> the
> > 3.0
> > > N concentration works
> > > >> best for me.? Absolutely no need to buy
> > > concentrated acid and you can
> > > >> avoid all the issues of what to add to
> what
> > and no
> > > need for Hazmet
> > > >> backup.? You can buy it already diluted,
> get
> > > the same benefit of a
> > > >> nitric acid etch (alcohol doesn't etch,
> it's
> > only a
> > > carrier and
> > > >> diluent).? Just crank up the oven to
> the
> > > higher end of a safe drying
> > > >> temperature.? That's the only real
> benefit
> > of
> > > alcohol in my opinion -
> > > >> it allows a cooler drying which can
> povide a
> > nicer
> > > (lower oxdation
> > > >> residue on the virgin etched surface, but
> now
> > we
> > > are staerting rally
> > > > to
> > > >> split hairs...IMO.
> > > >>
> > > >> Speaking of diluents, there's no reason
> nital
> > > (alcohol) is special as
> > > > a
> > > >> diluent.? Besides water, I'm suspecting
> > Nitric
> > > + acetone (Nitkeytone
> > > > ?)
> > > >> and any number of other solvents would
> work
> > fine if
> > > not be hiding a
> > > >> secret for even a better etching
> solution.?
> > > Sure acetone is flammable
> > > >> and can give you the willies too, you
> can't
> > win but
> > > that doesn't stop
> > > >> women who understand the chemical they
> use
> > from
> > > putting it on their
> > > >> fingernails ;-) granted not with acid,
> though
> > I bet
> > > some do
> > > >> inadvertantly mix it with salycilic acid
> > solution
> > > when disolving
> > > > excess
> > > >> skin ;-), which if not used properly
> could
> > > chemically remove a lot of
> > > >> flesh ...
> > > >> Kindest wishes
> > > >> Doug
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Mark Grossman <markig at westnet.com>
> > > >> To: MexicoDoug <MexicoDoug at aim.com>;
> > > meteoritesnorth
> > > >> <meteoritesnorth at hotmail.ca>;
> > > meteorite-list
> > > >> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > > >> Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 12:32 am
> > > >> Subject: Fw: [meteorite-list] Etching
> > solution
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Did a quick search on the internet.?
> Read
> > this
> > > tale from the
> > > Meteorite
> > > >> Association of Georgia regarding the
> hazards
> > of
> > > mixing nitric acid
> > > and
> > > >> ethanol:
> > > >> http://www.meteoriteassociationofgeorgia.org/article-052007.htm.
> > > >>
> > > >> Mark
> > > >>
> > > >> Mark Grossman
> > > >> Meteorite Manuscripts
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: "Mark Grossman" <markig at westnet.com>
> > > >> To: <mexicodoug at aim.com>;
> > > <meteoritesnorth at hotmail.ca>;
> > > >> <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > > >> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:40
> PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching
> > solution
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> I don't know all of the details of
> the
> > etching
> > > process, but a word of
> > > >>> caution - mixing concentrated nitric
> acid
> > with
> > > ethanol can result in
> > > >> an
> > > >>> explosion and a fire.? I've
> witnessed
> > the
> > > results of the reaction
> > > when
> > > >>> someone inadvertently mixed the two
> in a
> > lab
> > > years ago.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Mark
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Mark Grossman
> > > >>> Meteorite Manuscripts
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >>> From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> > > >>> To: <mexicodoug at aim.com>;
> > > <meteoritesnorth at hotmail.ca>;
> > > >>> <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > > >>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012
> 11:23 PM
> > > >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]
> Etching
> > solution
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> PS - if you don't have a hood or
> > other
> > > exhaust, the methyl alcohol
> > > >> could
> > > >>>> also be dangerous becasue the
> liver
> > breaks
> > > it down into toxins and
> > > >> you
> > > >>>> will inhale some of it.? That's
> > > another reason why I use ethanol in
> > > >> the
> > > >>>> oven, and frankly much more
> important
> > a
> > > reason than saving a few
> > > >> pennies
> > > >>>> ;-)? You can consider the
> residence
> > > time of the toxins in your
> > > >> system to
> > > >>>> be as long as a week, so if your
> are
> > doing
> > > etxching all day
> > > long,and
> > > >> are
> > > >>>> using methanol nital you
> definitely
> > need a
> > > very well ventilated
> > > >> place,
> > > >>>> and methanol is sneaky worthy of
> a
> > CSI
> > > episode of an innocent who
> > > >> done it
> > > >>>> since the syptoms and critical
> second
> > hit
> > > can be stealth and barely
> > > >>>> naseaous for the first.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I know you didn't ask about
> methyl
> > alcohol,
> > > but its good to see the
> > > >> 4
> > > >>>> common solcvent
> benefits/liabilities
> > side
> > > by side, at least my take
> > > >> on
> > > >>>> it. Anyway, you can see why
> ethyl
> > alcohol
> > > iis usually preferred.? I
> > > >> just
> > > >>>> checkethe azeotrophes
> andisopropyl is
> > only
> > > 2.3 C above ethanol
> > > >> mixtures
> > > >>>> so its ability to remove water
> would
> > be
> > > very similar in the oven,
> > > >> the
> > > >>>> last thing to look up to decide
> > > theoretically approximating the
> > > >>>> penetrating ability as related to
> the
> > > surface tension of the
> > > alcohol
> > > >>>> (just a guess) what is the
> bestest
> > alcohol
> > > would be to check the
> > > >> surface
> > > >>>> tension.? I just did and all
> three
> > > alcohols are nearly 4 times that
> > > >> of
> > > >>>> water and within 5% o each other,
> so
> > I
> > > would think that on
> > > >> penetrating
> > > >>>> ability they are probably all
> tied
> > and
> > > would argue all factors
> > > >> considered
> > > >>>> ethanol is best since the worst
> you
> > get is
> > > a standard hangover in
> > > >>>> standard use conditions, and to
> get a
> > freak
> > > explosion from EtOH
> > > >> mixtures
> > > >>>> with acid is minimal compared to
> > > isopropyl.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Ferric chloride of course doesn't
> have
> > the
> > > toxicity not
> > > >> flammability, but
> > > >>>> it stains like heck and with
> proper
> > respect
> > > for the reagents plus a
> > > >>>> little experience, like
> everything
> > else the
> > > risks are minimized.
> > > >> That's
> > > >>>> another reason to start with
> dilute
> > nitric
> > > which I highly recommend
> > > >> until
> > > >>>> you have the bugs worked out of
> the
> > etching
> > > "assembly line", ie,
> > > >> method
> > > >>>> you find best for your work.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Good luck,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Kindest wshes
> > > >>>> Doug.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>> From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> > > >>>> To: meteoritesnorth <meteoritesnorth at hotmail.ca>;
> > > Meteorite-list
> > > >>>> <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > > >>>> Sent: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 10:30 pm
> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]
> Etching
> > > solution
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Craig,
> > > >>>> Let me add (the message actually
> got
> > away
> > > before being finished as
> > > I
> > > >>>> write piecemeal and then send)
> that as
> > far
> > > as etching it works
> > > fine,
> > > >>>> but if you look at the series of
> > alcohols,
> > > methyl (bp = 65 C),
> > > ethyl
> > > >>>> (bp = 78 C) and isoproply alcohol
> (bp
> > = 83
> > > C), methyl alcohol
> > > >>>> (methanol) is by far the safest
> until
> > you
> > > get a lot of experience
> > > >>>> working with these under a
> hood.?
> > > "Ethyl nital" is mildly flammable
> > > >> in
> > > >>>> and Isopropyl nital is pretty
> > dangerous
> > > since if can blow up in
> > > >> certain
> > > >>>> conditions that aren't difficult
> to
> > > arrange.? Nothing to do with
> > > the
> > > >>>> etching results which are left
> to
> > trial and
> > > error, but rather the
> > > >>>> safety which I should have
> mentioned.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> While all the alcohols work fine,
> keep
> > in
> > > mind two of the factors
> > > > you
> > > >>>> are working with are
> > miscibility/penetrant
> > > ability and vapor
> > > >> pressure.
> > > >>>> Vapor pressure you can estimate
> by
> > boiling
> > > point - lower bp is a
> > > >> higher
> > > >>>> vp.? The higher vp the quicker
> it
> > will
> > > evaporate out, so methanol
> > > >> would
> > > >>>> seem to have the advantage,
> thought
> > it
> > > might form some azeotropes
> > > > and
> > > >>>> stay in longer, as could the
> rest
> > without
> > > looking this up (no time
> > > > at
> > > >>>> the moment).
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> To the series of three common
> alcohols
> > you
> > > could just add water bp
> > > =
> > > >>>> 100 and consider it almost as a
> > continuim
> > > and play with the you
> > > like
> > > >>>> which will influence drying time
> > among
> > > other important parameters.
> > > > I
> > > >>>> use methanol and later rinse
> with
> > ethanol
> > > (cheaper for me), which
> > > is
> > > >>>> the reverse of good drying
> practice I
> > would
> > > think, but half of the
> > > >> time
> > > >>>> I just use the diluted acid at 2
> - 3
> > N.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Hope that was a better answer,
> sorry
> > for
> > > not finishing the first
> > > >>>> kindest wishes
> > > >>>> Doug
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>> From: Craig Moody <meteoritesnorth at hotmail.ca>
> > > >>>> To: mexicodoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> > > >>>> Sent: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 9:42 pm
> > > >>>> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list]
> Etching
> > > solution
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Much appreciated Doug, Thank
> you!? I
> > > have lots of 99% around.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Craig
> > > >>>>
> > > ______________________________________________
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Visit the Archives at
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> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
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> > > >>>>
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> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > ______________________________________________
> > > >>>
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> ______________________________________________
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Received on Fri 27 Jan 2012 11:37:46 PM PST