[meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap

From: Jim Wooddell <nf114ec_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 13:54:21 -0700
Message-ID: <32F87E62880F42BABBAB7915B9F3DA32_at_Grande>

Hey Mark!

When you find out about AZ, please post on Desertsunburn too!

I thought about placing a rock in the tops of these pipes and lightly
tapping it into place. However, I guess some of the older markers, like the
kinds I've see are brittle and would simply fall apart. Then, I thought of
duct tape. And, then thought that you not last very long in the sun. So, it
just seems the PVC is not a good idea...period.

Thanks for looking into it and I understood where Sonny was coming from.

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Bowling" <minador at yahoo.com>
To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap


I agree with you Sonny - I wasn't implying that you were "anti-mining". So
sorry to anybody who took it that way. I agree the pipes shouldn't be used,
even if they are legal.

I read the original article before writing my response but I missed the part
that said some caps have been falling off, but I do see that mentioned this
new article. That's a shame. My caps were pretty tight because I've had to
remove them to correct bad info that I carved into them. Still, many of mine
have probably fallen off by now too. Another problem not mentioned is that
the PVC beaks down and the pipes break, creating new openings... I've seen a
lot of broken ones in the field.

It's ultimately up to the regulators to define what markers are allowed, and
if anybody doesn't comply, they will have to waste their time and money
doing it right because their claim is invalid. That should be motivation
enough to do it right going forward. They also say they can face fines
through the migratory bird treaty act. But the problem is all the historic,
abandoned markers. How do you fine people for something that was a condoned
legal practice? I think the only way to get the problem fixed is for people
like us to pull them out one by one when we happen upon them.

But be careful, this a state issue because most states define how to mark
federal mining claims. I think the posts are still legal in some states, and
you could get in trouble for removing them. It may just be allowed in
Nevada, so ask your local BLM office about it if you're in another state. I
will inquire here in AZ.

I'd like to point out that while thousands of claim markers are a huge
hazard for birds, there are other hazards too. Litter is a huge problem and
it's been illegal for a long time. The vast majority of the claims were
staked with the blessing of the BLM. Nobody saw the hazard before now. The
article mentions lizards. I've found hundreds of dead lizards, snakes and
such in beer bottles/cans, and many dead deer and even a live one trapped in
large dig holes. It felt good getting the live, though weak deer out of the
hole. We fenced off the hole (it was an old prospect pit). I have also found
dead animals that were trapped in abandoned cars. A lot of desert tortoises
unfortunately die each year because of man-made hazards. It's amazing what
you can find. Abandoned tires, man, what a mess they cause... Wildcat
dumping is still rampant, and I'm not talking just about the huge problem of
smugglers leaving acres of crap
 at transfer points.

So folks really should think before they leave their trash the "vast empty
desert". They should ask themselves, "would I dispose of this in my back
yard or dump it on my living room floor?". Pack it in and pack it out. It's
not hard concept, but how many times have you taken someone out and watched
them throw stuff down?... And if you stake a claim, don't use hollow pipes
to mark it, even if it's a legal method. I will not. o(:?-D

Happy hunting,
Mark


________________________________
From: "wahlperry at aol.com" <wahlperry at aol.com>
To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; mexicodoug at aim.com;
minador at yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap

Hi Doug, Mark and List,

First thanks for all the great replies. I want to point out that I am NOT
anti- mining. I have been a lifelong Nevada resident and I believe that
mining and wildlife can co-exist in our State. My main purpose was to
increase public awareness of this problem. I was saddened by what I found in
the PVC marker and would like to see the problem cease. I believe many of
these tragic deaths( if not all) can be avoided. Over the years while
exploring the deserts of the
Southwest I have crossed paths with many of the PVC markers. Some of the
valleys are covered with markers as far as the eye can see. Many of the
claims are long forgotten and the only reminder are the broken markers
littering the
Desert floor. In fact our State Bird the mountain bluebird has frequently
fallen victim to these pipes.

Here is a link to an article. PVC pipes trapping, killing birds by the
thousands "A troubling find was that "about half of those markers that HAD
PROTECTIVE CAPS put in place at some earlier point in time, now had those
caps DISPLACED, on the ground nearby," said state biologist Christy Klinger.
"So the hazard from the pipe became re-established."Here is a link to the
article.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/22/8955697-pvc-pipes-trapping-killing-birds-by-the-thousands

Sorry for the incomplete post. I have a meteorite hunting trip planned today
with a small army of PETA types to spread out into the desert knocking over
snd deatroying other peoplesproperty markers and hopefully find a few
meteorites. : )

Sonny






-----Original Message-----
From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
To: minador <minador at yahoo.com>; meteorite-list
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 11:11 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap


Hi Mark, everyone,It's too bad society needs rules but with so many humans
overrrunning the wilderness, the best way to deal with it is work on a
responsible collecting/mining/4-wheeling/detecting/etc. personal policy and
showcase it for all to see - just like Sonny - then regulations are not
zealously pursued and the offended find other causes more urgently in need
and leave us alone.I hear you, but just like everything we seem to get
involved in that is outdoors, a few bad apples can spoil it for the 90%+ of
people who really are law abidng common sense toting individuals and that is
where the regulators are forced to move, and in this case people that don't
clean up after themselfs, maybe because they died, or some other possibly
easily understandable reason.There are always people with different
priorities and I agree a bird zealot may seem over the top for a meteorite
hunter. But then again, a miner might not appreciate someone snooping over
the
 above grounds rights of a meteorite hunter and if enough meteorite hunters
are in areas with mining claims with enough rotten apples acting
suspiciously in a place like Gold Basin for example, the PETA bird zealot
becomes the miner and the meteorite hunter suffers.Who said, "common sense
is not so common". It's been that way since I was a kid metal detecting.
Even going back to the 1960's Handbook of metal detectors (the only outdated
book on detectors I found as a 9-year old in the library, the advice is
"cover your holes!" same principle, same danger, different day ;-) Look at
the bright side of things. It won't give the bird an opportunity to evolve
into building human tube traps that at night, lost meteorite hunters who are
so cold that they scamper in them for the crucial welcomed cover thanking
their instincts and happily fall asleep a little cold, but not frozen, only
to wake up in the warming sun to find themselves inside a tomb which
 allows them to see the sky but is to slippery to lift themselves out no
matter how much they beat themselves against the solitary confinement, all
they while slowly getting cooked alive in a roman style birdmade oven, until
their shreiks of nervous terror are extinguished by overheating bodies and a
sudden onset of a peaceful dehydration.Kindest wsiehsDoug-----Original
Message-----From: Mark Bowling <minador at yahoo.com>To: Count Deiro
<countdeiro at earthlink.net>; cetuspa <cetuspa at shaw.ca>; meteorite-list
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>Sent: Sat, Feb 18, 2012 1:14 amSubject:
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trapHi Count,They made it illegal to put
up uncapped markers, but because nobody did anythingwith the old, markers
that define mostly defunct claims (which should have beenan obvious
outcome), they made all PVC markers illegal. I think they should still allow
pipe to be used (PVC or otherwise), but that itmust be capped. And they can
 still allow people to remove (but leave in place)any uncapped markers
(because they are important boundary markers). I think ablanket outlawing of
any use of PVC as a marker is an over reaction. There is astrong anti-mining
movement, and it is sad to give them the excuse to removeresponsible capped
pipes, just because the pipe is PVC and they don't likeminers. I think a
common sense should be applied. Happy
hunting,Mark________________________________From: Count Deiro
<countdeiro at earthlink.net>To: cetuspa at shaw.ca;
meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.comSent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:51
PMSubject: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trapHi List and nature lovers in
general,Mining provides Nevada with the second largest contribution to our
State'seconomy in terms of jobs and money. The finding of ore bodies and the
stakingand recording of those claims is a necessity. The use of white
Schedule 40 PVCpipes evolved from first using Prince Albert tobacco
 tins to be the mostefficient and economical way of marking a
claim.Everybody I know likes birds. They look at them. They take pictures of
them.They paint them, they count them, keep them as pets... and they even
hunt andeat them. They are a necessity of life certainly.So, do we have to
pass a state mining regulation requiring placing a $1.49 pvccap on the pipe
with a couple of taps of a hammer, or a swab of pvc glue andsave the little
birdies? Or is it better to marshal a small army of PETA typesto spread out
into the desert knocking over snd deatroying other peoplesproperty
markers?Jesus must weep with the stupidity.Count DeiroIMCA
3536-----Forwarded Message----->From: Paul Gessler <>>Sent: Feb 17, 2012
8:06 PM>To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>Subject: [meteorite-list]
PVC death trap>>That is truly one of the most amazing things I have heard.>I
see those all the time hunting meteorites and never thought>much of them
except that I noticed they
 disintegrate fast in the sun.>Obviously not fast enough for these birds.
Thank you very much for>posting this and I too will leave none standing when
I come across>them in the future. What kind of birds were they? 14 is just
sadly>incredible!>>Paul
Gessler>>______________________________________________>>Visit the Archives
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Received on Sat 18 Feb 2012 03:54:21 PM PST