[meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 00:52:18 +0100
Message-ID: <01a401cdd0e8$107e11a0$317a34e0$_at_de>

Hi Adam,

You wouldn't have done wrong neither, if you would have told a price.
When it is about ownership, and you are the owner, and living in a free and
democratic state of law, it's not the business of the state
(at best only if you sell it, regarding taxes).

There are endless things, objects, estates, which have a monetary high
value.

"However, recent media attention
has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the
legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection. Courts have long
established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate."

That is a set phrase.
Replace meteorites by "bananas".
A new regulation needs a justification. That one is a weak one, but better
than to say, well we wanted to avoid the impression, that we're twirling our
thumbs all the day forour salaries.

(That increased public interest was btw. the goal by the U.S. representative
in the U.N. working group on meteorites.)

Courts? Which one, that - can't recall it, that case of 1906, where a
meteorite was subdued under the antiquities act? And Lorton. And one case of
the 40s. Right?
3 court decisions in hundred years within a people of 300 millions.
What an urge, to bring up a new law, - a happy people, which has no other
problems...

Btw. That really some protagonists reckon meteorites among "culture" is the
major problem.
(uh just read a while ago on web, that Botswana claims to have their
cultural heritage back, the biggest lunar Kalahai 009 and asked the
university muenster for it).

I fear, that can happen only, because such people haven't learned, what
culture is.....


Well, I have no idea about your legal system, whether precedents are binding
for judges.
In my country it's not so, a court decides case by case. So here it would be
easy to challenge, whether a meteorite is an antiquity.
Well, and the question, whether a fallen meteorite is genuine part of the
land. (in the Neuschwanstein case, the court decided: no.)

Soooo, if it was established long ago in your country, that meteorites are
part of the land, not falling under the exception to be a rock, to be
allowed to be collected from public land and possessed by the finder without
permission,
then anyway every meteorite found on public land before was already
illegally possessed (until lapse of time comes in effect).

Now you're allowed only to pick them up for personal use, but allowed, an
US-lunar rock in the flush reservoir to reduce water consumption, for the
flower bed, doorstop...
And if it's too large, bad luck, you have to let it rot there, wher you
found it.
Whether there is any public interest in such stone not to be found in
future,
...well, I'm not an expert.

It's of course a big pity, when I think, how long the US-hunters have to
hunt and to work, until they finally find something better than an old
chondrite. An Eucrite, or even such an exciting sensation like the CM1. - In
future I guess, you won't have such finds anymore.
Economically it never was rewarding to hunt "non-falls" in the U.S., so I
doubt, that the known hunter heroes will carry on, if the possibility is
taken away, that at least a part of their expenses can be recovered with one
or two good finds within several years.

Look, we witnessed, how and why Australia disappeared from the meteoritic
globe.
Tragically & not understandably. But in Australia are living happy people
too!
Why..,
because - how many people are interested in meteorites in that whole wide
World?
A couple of few thousands.

So the world will keep spinning on.

Anyway,
How many % of the surface of the U.S. are BLM land?
Isn't there private land enough left on your huge continent to hunt on and
to hope the next fresh fall will land on?

Maybe now, where capitalism is wiped out in BLM meteoritics it could be a
nice additional field for Dr.Harvey et al. - not so exotic, but also not so
expensive like Antarctica.
And due to the lack of personnel (and experience in hot deserts),
Maybe they will say: I hired a contract hunter!

Skol&Good Night America!
Martin



-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam
Hupe
Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 23:40
An: Adam
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

Martin,

I don't see how I can be wrong when I am basically quoting what was? stated
the Meteorite Recovery Act.? I avoid the press and have turned down more
interviews that I have accepted.? If the first question out of a reporters'
mouth is "how much is it worth?", I usually end the interview.? When we are
talking about a key piece, I will quote a price so that they do not try to
appraise the piece themselves which has happened numerous times in the
past.? I find it best to avoid the media.


It states right in the Recovery policy that "recent media attention has
increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion"

Here is the exact context:

"However, recent media attention
has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the
legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection.?Courts have long
established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate."



----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Cc:
Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

I think, you're beating the wrong ones.
These, you're thinking to be responsible due to their media presence are not
so mighty, to create new laws and regulations.

Btw. look it up in old magazines, even Saint Nininger was posing with
meteorites in the press and as a hunter, where of course also price tags
were blinking through the headlines, and no restrictions followed.

Neither in many countries, where meteorites were no topic at all in media,
decades ago, when there a strict legislation was newly introduced.

And what is wrong to pose with exciting pieces (and monetary values) in
public?
I know even two brothers, everywhere highlighting a large piece of the
Moon... ;-)

If everything which is good, expensive, loveable and fascinating would have
to be concealed, for the fear, that there could be some administrative
dabblers immediately trying to forbid them, I guess I, neither you wouldn't
want to live in a world like that.

Honestly, I have rather a problem, that there are extra-taxes on coffee
(gosh here the pound is now 7$, that's unfair.). And strange it is, that the
states are the largest profiteers in drug dealing. Tobacco, alcohol,
gambling..

And be glad.
Those new BLM-rules are by far not so strict like laws are in other
countries (which weren't that much noticed in the western navel-gazing), so
as harmful (and ahistorical) and stupid (ask the Ngweyama, I guess with his
12 wives, he has work enough, than to care with the Deputy Prime Minister
for possible
meteorites)
the new rules are for former meteorite nation #1, you got off still
relatively lightly.


Best!
Martin



-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam
Hupe
Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 22:46
An: Adam
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

TV entertainers and press-chasers have publicly turned looking for
meteorites into a treasure hunt complete with grossly inflated price-tags to
attract viewership. This is the same tired but effective method that the
lame Antique Roadshow has used for over a decade.? Perhaps these
entertainers can use their media influence to correct their wrongs or at the
very least apologize to the meteorite collecting community for knowingly
attracting the wrong kind of attention.? A lot of people including these BLM
employees do not realize there is a difference between TV entertainment and
reality.? It finally reached the point people have learned the prices quoted
on the Antique Show are bogus when they go to market an item.


Since meteorites are now considered treasure and antiques, perhaps we could
learn something from England's treasure trove laws.? The Government there
has to bid on the items if they truly want to protect them.? I think
non-essential BLM jobs should be cut if these public servants are keeping
themselves busy reading and acting upon Schmitt's crap or believe what they
see on TV.? They should start with the personal that took it upon themselves
to act as spokespeople for the rest of the public with the Meteorite Recover
Act of 2012.

Enough from me, I am angry over the this poor situation brought on by
thoughtless people.

Adam
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Received on Sun 02 Dec 2012 06:52:18 PM PST