[meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite

From: Matthias Bärmann <majbaermann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:31:10 +0200
Message-ID: <6071D549DC8D41FCB9F1EC8B90D0EEEC_at_thinkcentre>

Great pic, Regine, congratulation!

Best as ever,
Matthias

----- Original Message -----
From: "Regine P." <fips_bruno at yahoo.de>
To: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>; <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite


Other images are here:

http://spiralmemo.blogspot.de/p/blog-page.html

and here:

http://spiralmemo.blogspot.de/p/night-at-museum.html


Interesting, the handling by many somehow never occurred to me. I always
imagined just one person treating the meteorite as one of his own kids.
Perhaps because it was wrapped in a feather blanket and had its own grave.



----- Urspr?ngliche Message -----
> Von: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> An: fips_bruno at yahoo.de; Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> CC:
> Gesendet: 16:22 Montag, 30.April 2012
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite
>
> Interesting though these are likely three different types of human
> weathering (wearing).
>
> w1: Here's a nice picture of the Canyon Diablo (Camp Verde iron) piece
> in which listmembers can appreciate these comments regarding possible
> handling (rubbing, perhaps along these line suggested something similar
> to a tradition of receiving sacrament (Eucharist (sp?)) some Mexican
> Catholic churches when a transmuted plaster-Jesus is kissed by nearly
> everyone attending lined up single file - causing wear).
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=xCGpmoJl2dgC&pg=PA118
>
> w2: The perceptions of "wear " on an ancient, recovered find are of a
> different nature than one with fresh fusion crust and flowlines plus,
> over the stony olivine crystals of the Glorieta Mountain (Pojoaque
> iron) piece what was claimed to be a thick, possible fresh fusion
> crust. But as you say they could show different sorts of handling, in
> a case of a 61 kilos Camp Verde, not likely to have been carried about!
>
>
> w3: As for Anoka (Havana beads), as well as the Egyptian stuff, that's
> a different type of forming and "wearing" than Pojoaque and Camp Verde
>
> - the work in the literature and a poster on the Smithsonian website a
> few years ago pairing some of those to the Anoka meteorite suggests
> that the Smithsonian/UCLA/Iowa has access to two of the mentioned beads.
>
> "We conducted optical microscopy, SEM ele-mental and phase mapping,
> electron microprobe analy-ses, LA-ICP-MS and INAA analyses of Havana
> and Anoka for comparison."
>
> ref:
> http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2008/pdf/1984.pdf
>
>
> kindest wishes
> Doug
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Regine P. <fips_bruno at yahoo.de>
> To: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>; Meteorite-list
> <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Mon, Apr 30, 2012 2:00 am
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite
>
>
> Camp Verde comes to mind, of which one side, "the backbone" as
> Laurence
> Garvie
> calls it, seems to have been rubbed smooth. But taken its weight it
> could hardly
> have been carried around by a medicine man. Since I have first seen it
> I have
> always imagined someone taking it for its deceased child which has
> fallen back
> from the sky. It has a head, shoulders and a spine. Just a trifle heavy
> perhaps.
>
>
>
> ----- Urspr?ngliche Message -----
>> Von: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
>> An: fips_bruno at yahoo.de; Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> CC:
>> Gesendet: 1:57 Montag, 30.April 2012
>> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite
>>
>> & quot; the meteorite had been carried in a medicine bag? It doesn't
>
> sound
>> implausible, but what are the clues?"
>>
>> Hi, Regine, Carleton, Mike, Bernd, Jeff, David, Listers;
>>
>> I would like to draw some attention to the "carried in a medicine
>> pouch" since Regine asked ;-)
>>
>> These guys are all with the Great Spirit now, who did the
> excavations, so
>> we're stuck analyzing something that was contermplated in the
> 1920's
>> with the baggage of nearly an intervening century.
>>
>> It is quite possible, like many things, that this medicine pouch
> comment is a
>> comment run amok as usual with meteorites, someone says something,
> then it
> takes
>> on a life of its own due to tales getting taller,even among
> conservative
>> scientists, unintentionally, of course, everyone just takes away a
> different
>> idea and they follow natural 'election'.
>>
>> The original comment seems to be that it was carried as
> "medicine",
>> rather than in a medicine pouch. While this seems to be a minor
> difference,
>> it's not. One involves an inference and the other is more of an
>> observation.
>>
>> Nininger later (1952) expounds on the comment when discussing Native
> American
>> meteorite collectors and the medicine pounch has by then become alive
> in its
>> own, through no one's fault.
>>
>> The concept of "medicine" doesn't necessarily require a
> pouch, and
>> may not even be in the hands of a medicine man, why, it just as well
> could
> have
>> been a chief, or a brave warrior ... and could just as well be from a
> great
> deal
>> of handling. The observation was simply that at least three of the
>> protuberances above the regmaglypts depressions were highly worn from
> what was
>
>> very plausibly a soft material. To make the leap to call it a pouch,
> or just
> a
>> lot of hands ... is a good philosophical theme for a room full of
> meteorite
>> collectors and archeaologists without Regine's magic powder burns
> evidence.
>> But the fact was, the wear was supposedly caused from a lot of
> handling or
>> rubbing. That said, ablation is a strange master and it would be
> verrrrry
>> interesting to revisit this "wear" which formed the basis of the
>> original archaeological comments.
>>
>> What is for sure, apparently is that it was found inside the pottery
> and that
> in
>> turn in a burial ground. So there are some Spirits floating around
> it.
> Perhaps
>> Man & Impact Ed has a theory, it's his ballywick. But we do need
> to
> see
>> it. Carleton kindly mentions that a couple of grams were at ASU,
> that makes
>> sense that Nininger would take some. My fear is that calling this
> pivotal
> iron
>> "just" another synonym does no good to science if it is lost for
>> inspection. Apparently the piece weighed originally 3 ounces (about
> 85 g),
> and
>> it was a complete individual subject to what was speculated to be a
> violent
>> history, that is, after Nininger figured out how Glorieta ripped
> apart along
> of
>> course with Kunz.
>>
>> But not only is the mystery with the original piece, this piece is
> historical
> in
>> that it was the first specimen that was used as a keystone to pair a
> pallasite
>
>> fall to a siderite fall ... and help create the need to have a single
> name
> with
>> synonyms ... how ironic, errr... palladoxical ;-)
>>
>> Kindest wishes
>> Doug
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Regine P. <fips_bruno at yahoo.de>
>> To: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>; bernd.pauli
>> <bernd.pauli at paulinet.de>; meteorite-list
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Sun, Apr 29, 2012 7:04 pm
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite
>>
>>
>> Hi Doug, Bernd and all,
>>
>> I too would like to know where this one is being kept. What baffles
> me though,
>> how does one get to the conclusion the meteorite had been carried in
> a
> medicine
>> bag? It doesn't sound implausible, but what are the clues? Magic
> powder
>> topping?
>> Is there any further info?
>>
>>
>> Regine
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Urspr?ngliche Message -----
>>> Von: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
>>> An: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> CC:
>>> Gesendet: 23:54 Sonntag, 29.April 2012
>>> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite
>>>
>>> Hi Listers,
>>>
>>> Paired - quite likely - It has a much more interesting history than
>> to be
>> lumped
>>> as a synonym and IMO value as a named iron in its own right:
>>>
>>> This particular iron showed a lot of evidence of wear from human
>> handling and
>>> Nininger supported Mera's suggestion that it was carried in a
>> medicine pouch
>>> in Pojoaque, which makes a triangle geographically, roughly, with
>> Santa Fe,
>>> Glorieta, Mountain locality and Pojoaque pueble. According to the
>> circumstances
>>> of the fine, it was found inside some old pottery during
> excavations
>> at the
>>> Pueblo, i.e., protected, and exhibited beautiful flow lines and
>> notable bluish
>>
>>> fresh fusion crust, indicating it was a reasonable possibility that
>> whoever
>>> found it saw it fall. As it was found during excavations, it
> raises
>> the
>>> possibility of using this to date the Glorieta Mountain fall.
>>>
>>> It would be nice to know where this meteorite is now. Did it make
> it
>> to New
>>> Mexico's collection? Nininger, in 1931, saw it in Santa Fe,
>> specifically in
>>> the "Department of Anthropology", where Mera may have been
>> working.
>>> But someone else needs to sleuth a bit further from here because I
>> sure
>>> don't know where it is now, and it would be great to see it in its
>> present
>>> condition ;-), as it was cut up a bit because Nininger and others
>> used it to
>>> argue that Glorieta Mountain wasn't a siderite, but a
>> sidero-pallasite
>>> combination as well as consolidate some of the names Bernd lists
> ...
>> I think
>> the
>>> paper was 1940.
>>>
>>> Definitely a specimen with a very special, if not sacred, history
> ...
>>>
>>> Kindest wishes
>>> Doug
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Bernd V. Pauli <bernd.pauli at paulinet.de>
>>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:03 pm
>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello Jeff, Mike, David and List,
>>>
>>> David wrote: "It is indeed the synonym for Glorieta"
>>>
>>> ... and only one out of several others:
>>>
>>> Albuquerque
>>> Canoncito
>>> Glorieta
>>> Pojoaque
>>> Rio Arriba
>>> Santa Fe
>>> Santa Fe County
>>> Trinity County
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Bernd
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________
>>>
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>>>
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>>
>
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Received on Mon 30 Apr 2012 02:31:10 PM PDT