[meteorite-list] Daring Russian Sample Return Mission to Phobos Aims For November Liftoff

From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 11:56:39 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <8CE58A0FE6D45B5-11F8-35B01_at_webmail-m149.sysops.aol.com>

Hi Ed,

Well, those are some of the considerations, anyway, but it would be
nice to see more information about the entire design to get a better
answer. Did you notice (in Ron's press release) that it actually has
to carry two sampling "manipulators" because no one knows what the
so-called soil will be like. It could be like trying to cut a slice of
Allende, or trying to scoop up some fine desert sand. I bet if they
were more certain and didn't have to design a one-size (actually two
size) fits all they could have gotten a bit more.

One interesting panspermia experiment I didn't see in the press release
was that this will be, in the *space age*, the first earthlings
traveling on an interplanetary expedition and being somewhat safely
returned, at least on purpose. Some live organisms (extremophile
bacteria I seem to recall) are in the capsule payload as well, to test
their survivability. Lucky its not me behind this one or I'd probably
dump them on Phobos to try to fit some more material in the return!

The Mission payload weighs a little over 11 tons (most of which must be
fuel), but we can get insight into the design considerations by hearing
that because they missed the first launch window, it was 150 kg to
heavy due to increased requirements for the Nov 8, 2011 launch, which
forces either a reduction of weight somewhere on an already light
design, or the use of a more powerful and expensive launch vehicle on a
shoestring budget.

It's not like Russia has a stable wallet for its mission. They really
needed to work smart on this one to make it happen, working on an US
$80 million budget mission for 2008 - 2012, for the entire thing. For
comparison, the NASA Dawn project cost projection was US $446 million
(and only after cutting two instruments), though over a somewhat longer
time frame, it would be hard to select which is the more exciting
mission and more technically challenging. The Russian mission actually
will land on two worlds also - Phobos and then back to Earth, not to
mention deploying a Chinese Martian satellite they were forced to
include to finance part of the mission.

If I had time, one interesting aspect this mission has for me at least,
is the physics of cutting and drilling into an asteroid surface like
this Martian moon. The gravity of Phobos is pretty miniscule and the
law of 'action has an equal and opposite reaction' conjures in my
hyperactive imagination to think of a free-spiriting rock climber on a
boulder thousands of 6000 miles high, hanging only by his toes and
fingernails, trying to pull out a drill to remove material and put ion
in his pocket... If it is a hard surface, any push might move the
probe unless it were somehow secured, again, by drilling(?) mounts
somehow, to tie it down. So the calculation would be to look at
Phobos' gravity, the mass range of the probe, and consider once it
makes a soft landing, how much power can be put into the prospecting
instrument to poke and drill and using what tricks, to maintain the
whole thing stable.

Kindest wishes
Doug






-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Deckert <edeckert at triad.rr.com>
To: Meteorite-list <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; MexicoDoug
<mexicodoug at aim.com>
Sent: Fri, Oct 14, 2011 10:32 am
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Daring Russian Sample Return Mission to
Phobos Aims For November Liftoff


Doug,

Thanks for the time and thought that you put into your replies to my
questions. You put everything into perspective. Those were all points
that
I never thought to consider.

I was thinking from a pure mission cost perspective where the "cost per
gram" of the returned material was going to be exceedingly high, but
not
 from a logical perspective that took into consideration tools to
collect
samples, power consumption, escape velocity, etc. Certainly those have
non-negotiable limitations.

I too look forward to hearing what can be learned from the material
that is
returned to Earth, and I wish them the best of success in this endeavor.

Best Regards,
Ed

----- Original Message -----
From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
To: <edeckert at triad.rr.com>; <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Daring Russian Sample Return Mission to
Phobos
Aims For November Liftoff


One other thing -

Unless I'm mistaken, the escape velocity for Phobos-Grunt compared to
that from the surface of Earth's Moon where the Lunar module was used,
is in the same ratio as the Moon is to Earth. In other words, to
escape the Martian system from Phobos you'd be looking at 1/6 the
gravity that's on Earth's Moon. That is not a trivial effort!

But it is worth it ... hopefully pristine samples of the most
interesting of carbonaceous chondrites will be in the ROSCOSMOS return
capsule!

Kindest wishes
Doug


-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Deckert <edeckert at triad.rr.com>
To: baalke <baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov>; meteorite-list
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
Sent: Thu, Oct 13, 2011 10:19 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Daring Russian Sample Return Mission to
Phobos Aims For November Liftoff


Hi All,

I have some questions about this. I realize that there are likely some
limitations to be considered, and that this is an incredible
undertaking,
but 200 grams is not much material to bring back. Why the small
payload?

Would a greater sample weight negatively influence of the survival of
this
capsule during reentry through Earth's atmosphere? And why would it
not be
provided with some kind of transmitter to help locate it after it lands?

Ed

----- Original Message -----
From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
To: <baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Daring Russian Sample Return Mission to
Phobos
Aims For November Liftoff


> August 2014:
>
> "capsule will enter Earth's atmosphere at a speed of 12 kilometers
per
> second. The capsule has neither parachute nor radio communication and
will
> break its speed thanks to its conical shape"
>
> Sounds like a GREAT hunt, both for the ~ 200 g of Phobos to be
returned
> and for the capsule itself in 2014.
>
> Kudos to the ROSCOSMOS !!!
>
> Kindest wishes
> Doug
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Baalke <baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov>
> To: Meteorite Mailing List <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Thu, Oct 13, 2011 6:18 pm
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Daring Russian Sample Return Mission to
Phobos
> Aims For November Liftoff
>
>
>
http://www.universetoday.com/89845/daring-russian-sample-return-mission-to-martian-moon-phobos-aims-for-november-liftoff/
>
>
> Daring Russian Sample Return mission to Martian Moon Phobos aims for
> November Liftoff
>
> by Ken Kremer
> Universe Today
> October 13, 2011
>
> In just over 3 weeks time, Russia plans to launch a bold mission to
Mars
> who's
> objective, if successful, is to land on the Martian Moon Phobos and
return
> a
> cargo of precious soil samples back to Earth about three years later.
>
> The purpose is to determine the origin and evolution of Phobos and how
> that relates to Mars and the evolution of the solar system.
>
> Liftoff of the Phobos-Grunt space probe will end a nearly two decade
> long hiatus in Russia's exploration of the Red Planet following the
> failed Mars 96 mission and is currently scheduled to head to space
just
> weeks prior to this year's other Mars mission - namely NASA's next
Mars
> rover, the Curiosity Mars Science Laboratory (MSL).
>
> Blastoff of Phobos-Grunt may come as early as around Nov. 5 to Nov. 8
> atop a Russian Zenit 3-F rocket from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in
> Kazakhstan. The launch window extends until about Nov. 25. Elements of
> the spacecraft are undergoing final prelaunch testing at Baikonur.
>
> Baikonur is the same location from which Russian manned Soyuz rockets
> lift off for the International Space Station. Just like NASA's
Curiosity
> Mars rover, the mission was originally intended for a 2009 launch but
was
> prudently delayed to fix a number of technical problems.
>
> "November will see the launch of the Phobos-Grunt interplanetary
> automatic research station aimed at delivering samples of the Martian
> natural satellite's soil to Earth", said Vladimir Popovkin, head of
the
> Russian Federal Space Agency, speaking recently at a session of the
> State Duma according to the Voice of Russia, a Russian government news
> agency.
>
> The spacecraft will reach the vicinity of Mars after an 11 month
> interplanetary cruise around October 2012. Following several months of
> orbital science investigations of Mars and its two moons and searching
> for a safe landing site, Phobos-Grunt will attempt history's first
ever
> touchdown on Phobos. It will conduct a comprehensive analysis of the
> surface of the tiny moon and collect up to 200 grams of soil and rocks
> with a robotic arm and drill.
>
> After about a year of surface operations, the loaded return vehicle
will
> blast off from Phobos and arrive back at Earth around August 2014.
These
> would be the first macroscopic samples returned from another body in
the
> solar system since Russia's Luna 24 in 1976.
>
> "The way back will take between nine and 11 months, after which the
> return capsule will enter Earth's atmosphere at a speed of 12
kilometers
> per second. The capsule has neither parachute nor radio communication
> and will break its speed thanks to its conical shape," said chief
> spacecraft constructor Maksim Martynov according to a report from the
> Russia Today news agency. He added that there are two soil collection
> manipulators on the lander because of uncertainties in the
> characteristics of Phobos soil.
>
> Phobos-Grunt was built by NPO Lavochkin and consists of a cruise
stage,
> orbiter/lander, ascent vehicle, and Earth return vehicle.
>
> The spacecraft weighs nearly 12,000 kg and is equipped with a
> sophisticated 50 kg international science payload, in particular from
> France and CNES, the French Space Agency.
>
> Also tucked aboard is the Yinghou-1 microsatellite supplied by China.
> The 110 kg Yinghou-1 is China's first probe to launch to Mars and will
> study the Red Planet's magnetic and gravity fields and surface
> environment from orbit for about 1 year.
>
> "It will be the first time such research [at Mars] will be done by two
> spacecraft simultaneously. The research will help understand how the
> erosion of Mars' atmosphere happens," said Professor Lev Zelyony from
> the Space Research Institute of the Russian Academy of Science,
> according to Russia Today.
>
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Received on Fri 14 Oct 2011 11:56:39 AM PDT