[meteorite-list] Holocene Extinctions and a different lake

From: E.P. Grondine <epgrondine_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:47:29 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1321566449.50064.YahooMailClassic_at_web36908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Paul, all -

Paul, I am sorry I wasted your time on Lake Missoula.

I'm glad to hear that all the debate about the dating of the Lake Misssoula flooding has now been cleared up. Does the same thing hold for Lake Bonneville, and other Ice Age plains lakes?

Here was the problem:
http://uonews.uoregon.edu/archive/news-release/2011/3/california-islands-give-evidence-early-seafaring

"The points and crescents are similar to artifacts found in the Great Basin and Columbia Plateau areas, including pre-Clovis levels at Paisley Caves in eastern Oregon."

You have maritime cultures moving inland, essentially still living on clams, fish, and marsh birds. The dates are pre-clovis.

(And thus before the Holocene Start Impacts, which are well evidenced by a global distribution of impact products, including impact products distributed by the atmosphere and recovered from glaciers, currently estimated to have occured ca. 10,750 BCE. By the way, those cores you mention should also be showing the Holocene Start Impacts as well, so a special thanks for those links.)

Now here's the Great Basin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Basin
And here's the Coumbia Plateau:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Plateau

And here's Paisley Caves, near one dried up ice age lake:
http://www.donsmaps.com/coproliteevidence.html

And notice the mt A haplogroup (siouxian) and the mt B haplogroup (asian origin, Assiniboine Nakota)? found there:
http://archaeology.about.com/b/2008/04/03/paisley-caves-the-discovery-of-preclovis-human-dna.htm

Now all I need is a map of the western glacial lakes of the late pleistocene, with which I could then compare the distribution of artifacts. But I do not play a geologist on television, nor am I one in real life.

My guess is that with your vast knowledge of geology, pointing me to such a map would be a piece of cake, and it would take but a few minutes of your time, far less than the minutes you spent ruling out Lake Missoula as a candidate for the lake the Nakota remembered living on.

For that matter, you could do a far better job then I could in looking for Pacific Current cooling evidence in those Pacific coast cores.

Thanks,
Ed

> Hi all -
>
> I see from today's news that many people are still confused by the
> extinctions caused by the Holocene Start Impacts. Its really pretty
> easy, as Elephants need 450 pounds of food a day.
> Perhaps the following will explain it better.
> Good hunting, all -
> E.P. Grondine
> Man and Impact in the Americas
>
>
> THE WASHINGTON SCABLANDS AND ASSINIBOINE IMPACT ACCOUNTS
>
> Several posters here are interested in Harlan Bretz and the spread of
> his catastrophist hypothesis for the formation of the Washington
> sacablands. Currently, while all geologists agree that the scablands
> were formed by catastrophic flooding, there is debate over whether they
> were caused by the release of one or multiple lakes and exactly when
> the flooding(s) occurred. Of course, as oil companies have for years
> been drilling cores off the coast of Washington, those questions could
> be readily answered, except that those cores are proprietary.
> I spent some time reading through Adrienne Mayor's book "Fossil
> Legends of the First Americans" recently. It turns out that the
> Assiniboine (Nakota) may have remembered at least one of those floods.
> Mayor's book is pretty good, and she nearly succeeds in spanning the
> two worlds, but sadly she did not realize that the peoples remembered
> impacts, and thus failed to entirely grasp fundamental concepts like
> "uktena" and "tlanwa". Mayor also retells the traditions with her
> intense interest in fossils coloring her retellings, and it is tough
> using her book to locate the original traditions as they were first
> shared. However, that said, it is a pretty good book.
> THE NAKOTA (ASSINIBOINE) ACCOUNTS IN MAYOR'S RETELLING
>
> Fragment 1:
>
> "One Assiniboine name for bones of monstrous size was "Wau-wau-kah".
> This was a "half spirit, half animal" imagined as a great river monster
> with long black[?]hair, scales, and horns like trees.
> "Myth [tradition - epg] tells of its death by the impact of a
> "thunder stone", a black ["black" due to the ablated surfaces of the
> meteorites which the Nakota later collected. - epg], projectile that
> came whistling out of the west with "terrible velocity", "defeaning
> noise", and "a bright flash" - a scenario that seems akin to the modern
> theory of an asteroid impact 65 million years ago [Mayor gets very
> close here - epg]. "My bones may be found", warned the Water Monster
> Wau-wau-kah, but unless the Assiniboines made offerings to its spirit,
> the monster vowed to create disastrous floods and block their trails
> with its colossal bones."
>
> Fragment 2:
>
> "A tale [tradition - epg] of the antagonism between Thunder and Water
> Monsters was recounted by an Assiniboine story teller [tradition keeper
> - epg] (perhaps Coming Day? - AM) in 1909 at Fort Belknap.
> "Long ago, some Sioux and Assiniboines camping at a big lake
> witnessed a battle between Thunder Bird and a Water Monster on an
> island in the lake."
>
> The storyteller's grandmother had told him that: "as the Thunder Bird
> drew the writhing monster up from the island, the Indians' hair and
> their horses manes, [a non-temporal insertion - epg] stood on end from
> the electricity.
> ["electricity" is another non-temporal insertion. Perhaps it may also
> be a modern simple telling of a large electrophorenic effect from the
> impactors entries. In regards to the "horses manes", it needs to be
> noted that a rider on a horse in the plains is a high point that will
> attract lightening, much as a golfer standing on a gold course will,
> and thus it was very important to know the signs of an impending
> lightening strike.]
>
> "The Thunder Bird's lightening ignited raging forest fires; then a
> long terrible blizzard followed; and still later the lake bed dried up
> and many kinds of animals perished there."
>
> "The raging forest fires" were likely caused by the infrared of
> multiple impacts. "the long terrible blizzard" describes the a standard
> severe climate collapse caused by atmospheric impact dust loading.
> "the Lake" of the Assiniboine is as yet unlocated; perhaps it was
> Lake Agassiz, but much more likely it was a glacial lake much further
> south ("forest fires").
>
> Why did that lake dry up? Either its ice damn failed ("disasterous
> floods", above), or there was a lack of precipitation due to a cooling
> of the temperature of the Pacific Current.
>
> "The many kinds of animals" likely perished due to lack of food, a
> famine which appears as a common element in many of the First Peoples'
> memories of the Holocene Start Impacts.
Received on Thu 17 Nov 2011 04:47:29 PM PST