[meteorite-list] Pro's & Con's of Meteorites

From: Richard Montgomery <rickmont_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 18:19:57 -0700
Message-ID: <3C95E4E061E24EE5B22AB01727F867CE_at_bosoheadPC>

Hi List, and Mike G.

Gosh, there were two words in Mike G.'s post below that struck a nerve, ones
that none of us want to feel:

government bureaucrats. (I refuse to capitalize them.)

That would be the last thing we need. We cannot have honor and integrity
"replaced" by regulation, laws and that whole mess.

The discussion is lively, worthy, and making progress. (Let's do all we can
to keep the gov-thugs out of this.)

-Richard Montgomery


----- Original Message -----
From: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
To: "Greg Hup?" <gmhupe at centurylink.net>
Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Pro's & Con's of Meteorites


Well said Greg. I don't think any rational person can argue what you just
said.

You used a word "prefessional". I think it was a typo, but it
actually fits some dealers in some circumstances.

Not all of us have the financial means or the physical opportunities
to travel the world and do hunting work in the field. I am one of
those people. If I had the means and if my wife and I didn't have
major medical issues, I would one of those brave souls who combs the
deserts looking for meteorites. I envy and respect those who can. I
think the word "prefessional" applies to myself and some others. We
aspire to be professional, but lack the necessary means to fully
engage in the field of meteorites. So, we hunt and live vicariously
through the true professionals that can. But, because we don't go out
in the field, doesn't mean buyers should be suspect of us or our
specimens.

My file is full of specimen cards with names like Hupe, Farmer, and
others on them. In fact, I think I have more Hupe specimen cards than
all other cards combined. Some were bought directly from Adam and
Greg - others were bought secondhand from the original buyers. In
those latter cases, I take every precaution to make sure that the
person I am buying from is honest and honorable. If there is any
appearance of a doubt, I pass.

Don't get me wrong - I have taken issue with the IMCA over some
things. But I still find myself grateful that such an organization
exists and is populated mostly by honorable professionals. My point
is, membership in such an organization is not infallible proof that
specimens from a member are 100% genuine and as-described. Likewise,
non-membership in such an organization is not proof positive that
specimens from that non-member cannot be trusted.

No group is perfect - political, law enforcement, or otherwise. It is
how that group polices itself and enforces it's own rules that is
important. I also think that transparency is important when it comes
to groups that position themselves into a place of authority over
others. As Dirk Ross said earlier, if I was a member of the IMCA, I
would have serious misgivings about the apparent lack of transparency
in regards to blacklists, financial statements, etc.

But, I do not render judgement on the group as a whole because of
this. Some of my most trusted sources are IMCA members. Some of my
best friends in the meteorite world are IMCA members. Likewise, the
reverse can be said - I know some very honorable people who are not
members of that group. In my mind, this issue of bogus Mifflin stones
and misrepresented meteorites is not an IMCA issue - it is an issue
for ALL members of the meteorite community - collectors, dealers,
scientists, and institutions. Fraud effects us all and tarnishes all
of our reputations - just like that horrid excuse for journalism in
the NY Times.

If we don't want a bunch of government bureaucrats to step in and
regulate our hobby, then we need to do a better job of policing
ourselves and holding fraudsters accountable. This means outing them
in public and letting everyone know who the bad actors are. If
someone is mistakenly labeled as "blacklisted" and they turn out to be
honorable, then we should also admit our errors in public and make
things right. No process is perfect, but failing to strive for
anything less than perfection is dereliction of duty in a field such
as meteorites.

Best regards from the peanut gallery,

MikeG




On 5/9/11, Greg Hup? <gmhupe at centurylink.net> wrote:
> Dear Members of the MetList and IMCA:
>
> Over the last month or so there have been quite a few different concerns
> brought up on these two forums and others. I would like to make a few
> generalized comments touching base on a few of them. It appears that
> desperate times will spawn desperate acts by a small number who affect us
> all.
>
> PRO-fessional or CON-artist? This seems to be the common theme of these
> topics.
>
> * There has been recent concerns about 'Bait-n-Switch' fraud concerning a
> recent fall.
> * There have been notices of outright theft.
> * There have been discussions of not disclosing certain conditions of
> specimens for sale.
> * There have been discussions of false promises, lead-ons, etc.
> * There has been talk of extremely poor reporting.
>
> If a particular individual or organization has a history of official or
> casual complaints, you need to ask yourself, "Is this person or company
> purposely committing fraud, a scam, or are they just plain incompetent at
> conducting business?"
>
> Coat-tailing classified meteorites is a crime! We are often 'told' some
> stones are guaranteed paired to "NWA xxxx" or "Mifflin" or what have you,
> when in fact, some times they are not. Dealers who take the cheap and lazy
> route are cheating their customers and undermining the confidence of
> collectors, and in fact, lose sales in the long run. Even the most
> experienced dealers are taken victim to this form of crime, some
> willingly,
> some not.
>
> On the flip side to collecting and dealing, there are a very small number
> of
> scientists who refuse to change classifications when proven different
> beyond
> a shadow of doubt by science and their peers. To me, this is one of the
> worst crimes to science and collectors alike. Is it arrogance?
>
> Reporters commit crimes against our avocation as discussed in great detail
> lately, no need to comment further now. Seems there are a few who just
> want
> self-glory and recognition.
>
> Some people treat these subjects as 'taboo' and stick their heads in the
> sand or try to silence those who speak out, to keep the 'peace'. There is
> no
> peace when being wronged!
>
> Call your trusted friends, ask around, ask for references. People will
> tell
> you what they know. In turn, they will talk to their friends, and so on...
> until the full circle of our small world communicates with each other to
> expose the culprits.
>
> Certain people and organizations need to take a long look in the mirror
> before they decide to cheat another person. Some are known, others will
> sooner or later be exposed by their greed, arrogance or reckless
> incompetence.
>
> Would you prefer to work with a PRO-fessional or a CON-artist? I use the
> term, "Prefessional" in a generalized manner, not referring to being paid
> or
> not.
>
> These are just a few of my thoughts lately, they are not meant to start a
> mud slinging contest, only to open the eyes of those who do not know or
> care
> to know. These are some of the disappointments of the world of
> meteoritics.
> Not all avocations are perfect and without scammers, but at least in our
> very small world, we can point out the less desirables and oust them
> sooner
> than later.
>
> It's about time these few be put on notice. Vote with your wallets, DO NOT
> do business with them!
>
> Best Regards,
> Greg Hup?
>
> ====================
> Greg Hup?
> The Hup? Collection
> gmhupe at centurylink.net
> www.LunarRock.com
> IMCA 3163
> ====================
>
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Received on Mon 09 May 2011 09:19:57 PM PDT