[meteorite-list] Mifflin, Amiss

From: Richard Montgomery <rickmont_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 10:59:28 -0700
Message-ID: <EDFDDDD836D94921A9F9EE91FFDBC8AB_at_bosoheadPC>

Greg Hupe makes a huge point....when I first read the name Greg with no
initial or last name, momentarily I was, well very very confused until I
figured it out.

Richard Montgomery


----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Hupe" <gmhupe at centurylink.net>
To: "meteoritelist" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin, Amiss


> Hello All,
>
> I have a request to make of people posting to this List, IMCA List or
> elsewhere. Since there are multiple members with the same first name, (ie.
> Carl, Dave, Eric, Mike, Bob, Greg, among others), can posters please
> include the last initial or complete last name of the particular person
> they are referring to. I think this will help people reading these posts
> now months or years later not get confused as to who the post is about.
>
> Thank You!
> GregH
>
> ====================
> Greg Hupe
> The Hupe Collection
> gmhupe at centurylink.net
> www.LunarRock.com
> IMCA 3163
> ====================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stuart McDaniel
> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 12:47 PM
> To: Shawn Alan ; jasonutas at gmail.com ; Linton Rohr
> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin, Amiss
>
> Sounds like someone owes me a Mifflin replacement since I have a piece of
> this rock from Carl myself!!!
>
>
> Stuart McDaniel
> Lawndale, NC
> Secr.,
> Cleve. Co. Astronomical Society
> IMCA #9052
> Member - KCA, KBCA, CDUSA
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Catterton
> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 4:07 AM
> To: Shawn Alan ; jasonutas at gmail.com ; Linton Rohr
> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin, Amiss
>
> Ok. I cant keep this quite anymore... Screw the lies and secrets. I think
> the truth should be out there.
> About Joes "awesome" stone...
>
> He told me personally and we also talked over email about it... he found
> it
> on the same persons property that someone else had already stolen a stone
> from.
>
> Yes, I know this because he told me directly. No second hand BS.
>
> He lied to everyone and even had a totally BS story published about his
> finding it under a bridge.
>
> So please, before anyone else goes to say how Joe fed his family, took a
> trip to disney world and what not, he lied about finding it and thats the
> true story behind the "Kerchner Stone"
> Yes, his family ate, but what about the person whos land it fell on? Ask
> her
> how her family trip to disney went...
>
> Joe, sorry man, but it had to come out at some time.
>
> I took public one person who stole material from Mifflin, anyone else care
> to out the other? I dont know the whole story, so I will let others tell
> that tale. I know many on this list know of Joes lie and also the other
> person... but I honestly doubt ANYONE will come forward on this.
>
>
> Greg Catterton
> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
> IMCA member 4682
> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>
>
> --- On Sun, 5/8/11, Linton Rohr <lintonius at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> From: Linton Rohr <lintonius at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin, Amiss
>> To: "Shawn Alan" <photophlow at yahoo.com>, jasonutas at gmail.com
>> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> Date: Sunday, May 8, 2011, 3:29 AM
>> Ahoy there, Jason, Shawn and list.
>> Intriguing situation, Jason. Thanks for sharing.
>> And like you Shawn, I'm glad I got my beautiful little
>> slice from Joe. I didn't see all that much "drama" in it,
>> though. He put in a lot of work, and found enough to be able
>> to both keep some and sell enough to feed his family. That's
>> just plain cool, in my book. Thanks Joe!
>> Linton
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shawn Alan" <photophlow at yahoo.com>
>> To: <jasonutas at gmail.com>
>> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:38 PM
>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Mifflin, Amiss
>>
>>
>> Jason and Listers,
>>
>>
>> This is a very interesting post in the since I have to say
>> something doesn't add up. One an anonymous finder contacts
>> Carl and has him send cash to a PO box..... Red flag. Two
>> the phone number is disconnected..... Three the transaction
>> was done in cash. I have to say with those three elements
>> this would have to be a scam, someone got had. If this was a
>> legit sale wouldn't it have been done in the correct ways
>> via pay pal not some undercover 007 style, sending cash in
>> the mail to a PO BOX?
>>
>> As for testing goes, cant Carl Agee do a terrestrial age
>> analysis and also have a cre done which can prove or
>> disprove this theory that someone is suggesting that Mifflin
>> has two litholgies, which I have to say isnt the case and
>> that these stones are not related to Mifflin in anyway from
>> the evidence presented by Jason.
>>
>> Now the question is who was the scammer. I have to assume
>> that one this scammer knew what they were doing and somehow
>> was or is connected to the meteorite collecting world or
>> they are really smart and picked up how to scam meteorite
>> hunter 101. First of all they knew of Carl, two they knew of
>> the fall, three, they knew of what a freshly fallen
>> meteorite looks like and four the meteorite in question is a
>> real meteorite but not from the same fall.
>>
>> I think the scammer is one of us or is connected to one of
>> us just because of the circumstances of the event and that
>> the meteorite is a real meteorite and has fusion crust. If
>> it was a non meteoritest, I think it would have been a
>> stone, but this was not the case it was a real meteorite in
>> the mists of being a fake Mifflin. This is to good to be
>> done by some non meteorite collector but again people are
>> getting smarter these days to make some cash. But this means
>> that this scammer would have to buy a real meteorite to turn
>> around to sell as a fake recent meteorite fall.
>>
>> All I can say is if I came into this situation I would have
>> thought the sale would have been a scam right from the start
>> with me sending money to a PO box. Also I am glad I didn't
>> buy this stuff I was able to buy some from Joe Kerchner
>> which that had some drama in its self as well.
>>
>> My 2 cents
>>
>> Shawn Alan
>> IMCA 1633
>> eBaystore
>> http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [meteorite-list] Mifflin, Amiss
>> jason utas jasonutas at gmail.com
>> Sat May 7 21:12:16 EDT 2011
>>
>> Previous message: [meteorite-list] Where is everyone?
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>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Hello All,
>>
>> My story begins in the summer of last year. I saw some
>> strange pieces
>> of 'Mifflin' on ebay that I thought looked funny. People
>> were talking
>> about the meteorite having two lithologies, but...the
>> slices and
>> individuals that I saw looked 'off.' A select few looked
>> like
>> H-chondrites, and they had the telltale signs of wear that
>> freshly-imported Moroccan falls bear: worn edges, exposed
>> metal flakes
>> on protruding corners (where the fusion crust had been worn
>> off due to
>> improper packing), etc.
>>
>> At the time, I did nothing but send a private email to Anne
>> Black
>> notifying her of my suspicions. I spoke with some other
>> prominent
>> list-members addressing it, and they all agreed that the
>> material
>> looked funny, but that nothing could be done about it given
>> the
>> required burden of proof.
>>
>> So, I sat on my hands for several months.
>>
>> Just over a month ago, I saw a piece of the funny-looking
>> 'Mifflin' on
>> ebay. It looked similar to some pieces that I remembered
>> seeing on
>> ebay months before, and, being an end-cut, I was able to
>> see both the
>> stone's funny-looking inside -- and the apparent metal
>> grains on the
>> stone's exterior.
>>
>> I used the 'buy-it-now' option to purchase the end-cut, and
>> it
>> arrived while Peter and I were in Morocco. When we
>> returned, I
>> promptly shipped the end-cut off to Tony Irving of the
>> University of
>> Washington; he agreed to analyze the stone posthaste.
>>
>> The results came back, but Tony wanted to wait until the
>> probe was
>> recallibrated so that he could run it again to be sure.
>>
>> Lo and behold, he did confirm that my end-cut was an
>> equilibrated
>> H-chondrite, with an olivine Fa of 18.6. For comparison,
>> Chergach and
>> Bassikounou both have Fa contents of 18.4 and 18.6,
>> respectively.
>>
>> University of Madison, Wisconsin performed most of the work
>> on the
>> Mifflin fall. Between them and the Field Museum, over
>> twenty separate
>> stones were analyzed. They were all L5. Mifflin is
>> classified as an
>> L5, with an Fa of ~24.9 +/- 0.2.
>>
>> I then sent Tony the link to the ebay auction so he could
>> confirm that
>> the piece that he had analyzed was indeed the piece that I
>> had sent
>> him. He did.
>>
>> I purchased my end-cut from Bryan Scarborough (IMCA), who
>> purchased it
>> from Michael Cottingham, who purchased it from Greg
>> Catterton (IMCA),
>> who purchased the stone with Carl Esparza from the finder.
>>
>> Carl told me the following story over the phone:
>> He was contacted "out of the blue" by someone hunting in
>> the Mifflin
>> strewn-field. According to Carl, the finder stated that he
>> thought
>> there was a "conspiracy against him," because no one would
>> offer him
>> more than $5/g. and he believed his finds were worth more
>> than that.
>> So, according to Carl, he then offered the finder $10/g,
>> and a deal was
>> struck.
>>
>> But...the finder asked that he not be paid via paypal or
>> wire
>> transfer; he wanted cash mailed to a P.O. Box.
>>
>> So, Carl mailed the money to the P.O. Box and the first of
>> two 'Mifflin'
>> stones was over-nighted to him the next day. It should be
>> noted that
>> Carl included Greg Catterton as his partner in this deal,
>> and Greg
>> sent over several hundred dollars to help pay for the
>> stones.
>>
>> Unfortunately, as Carl said over the phone, his old
>> computer recently
>> died, so he lacks the name and email address of the finder,
>> as well as
>> the number/address of the P.O. Box to which he sent the
>> money. Carl
>> is also unwilling to share the bank receipt from the
>> transaction which
>> would prove that he did make a large cash withdrawal for
>> the stones.
>> I asked Carl for the finder's phone number, but he told me
>> that he had
>> recently tried to call the finder, himself, only to find
>> that the
>> number had been disconnected.
>> He was unwilling to share the number with me, regardless.
>>
>> On the phone, Carl suggested that his source had likely
>> ripped him
>> off, and he said that he believed that it was the reason
>> why he had
>> been asked to send the money untraceably, as he did; Carl
>> described
>> the situation as a "typical scam."
>>
>> He also suggested that the stones *might* be from an
>> unrelated fall -- or could be the result of Mifflin being an
>> 'Almahata Sitta sort of
>> fall.'
>>
>> I can't disprove either of those ideas, but they are
>> unlikely for the
>> following reasons:
>>
>> 1) Almahata Sitta is a unique event in the history of
>> meteoritics.
>> Different lithologies have been observed in many
>> meteorites, but to
>> have individual stones of completely different and
>> unrelated meteorite
>> types falling separately is unique. Out of the 1,238
>> accepted
>> observed falls in the meteoritical bulletin, only one has
>> exhibited
>> individuals that have consisted of different meteorite
>> types (for
>> example, H + L, Ureilite + EH, etc).
>>
>> And it's not that we haven't been looking for similar
>> events; with
>> each and every fall, multiple stones are analyzed, and the
>> simple fact
>> of the matter is that they are always similar...with *one*
>> exception.
>>
>> So, Almahata Sitta is an exception. How much of an
>> exception? 0.08%
>> of meteorite falls are like it. Less than a tenth of a
>> percent.
>> Possible...but extremely unlikely. We also have to wonder
>> about why
>> or how this hunter managed to find the only two H's from
>> the fall that
>> were recognized. Over twenty other stones were studied and
>> this
>> finder supposedly turned up two or three that were all H's.
>> It's 'funny.'
>>
>> The other possibility that Carl advocated is that the
>> stones may actually
>> have been found in Wisconsin -- and they may be part of a
>> new fall that
>> somehow slipped under the radar. He initially suggested
>> that they were
>> from the fireball widely seen across the Midwest on May
>> 10th, but, at the
>> time, I had paypal records from Greg that stated that he
>> had sent Carl the
>> money for the stones as early as April 24th.
>> So we ruled out that possibility..
>>
>> But, I agree; the stones could theoretically have come from
>> a
>> different fall. The end-cut that I bought showed no visible
>> signs of
>> weathering. No oxide, no anything. Given the weather in and
>> around
>> Mifflin at the time of the fall, we can assume that the
>> stones were
>> picked up within a week or so of having fallen. No AMS
>> reports of
>> anything in the region for the given timeframe doesn't
>> disprove
>> anything since meteorites often fall without much ado,
>> but...two falls
>> in the same place *at the same time?*
>> Granted, it's possible. Not very likely, though.
>>
>> And you've still got to wonder about why no one else found
>> any
>> H-chondrites while looking for Mifflin. It's not like
>> meteorites were
>> laying thickly on the ground. Everyone who found stones out
>> there put
>> considerable time into hunting -- and they all found only
>> L5's. So if
>> Carl's source were telling the truth, and he did find the
>> stones, it
>> seems best to assume that he wasn't hunting in the Mifflin
>> strewn-field, because, if he were, he would 1) probably
>> have found
>> L5's, and 2) other people would probably have found H's as
>> well.
>>
>> The conclusion I draw from this is that the truth has
>> become
>> well-hidden. What is certain is that I have been refunded
>> by
>> Bryan, and I know for a fact that Bryan has been refunded
>> by
>> Michael Cottingham, who has in turn been refunded by Greg
>> Catterton.
>>
>> What I have heard, however, is that Carl has been defending
>> the
>> legitimacy of his stones, and is refusing to refund Greg
>> Catterton.
>>
>> Regardless of whether the material is Mifflin or another
>> meteorite
>> (from Wisconsin or from NWA -- it doesn't matter), the
>> simple fact
>> of the matter is that the material sold by Carl has been
>> shown to be
>> different from how it was advertised, and as such, he
>> should be
>> willing to accept its return for a refund. If he wishes to
>> get it
>> analyzed and sell it to others as a new meteorite, that is
>> his
>> concern.
>>
>> I am fairly certain that Bryan, Michael, and Greg
>> unknowingly sold the
>> material as Mifflin, believing that it was indeed what they
>> sold it
>> as.
>>
>> That is my 2 cents.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jason Utas
>>
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Received on Sun 08 May 2011 01:59:28 PM PDT