[meteorite-list] Gebel Kamil

From: cdtucson at cox.net <*cdtucson_at_meteoritecentral.com*> Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:59:39 -0400 Message-ID: <20110313105939.EPE79.34757.imail_at_fed1rmwml4101> · cdtucson_at_meteoritecentral.com

--
Carl or Debbie Esparza
Meteoritemax
---- Galactic Stone and Ironworks <meteoritemike at gmail.com> wrote: 
> Hi Gang,
> 
> I think what Carl is trying to say, if I am following this correctly,
> is that Egypt has no history of private ownership of *anything* found
> on public/Egyptian land.  Unlike the US, if you find something
> (anything) in Egypt, on land that is not your's, then it belongs to
> the Egyptian government - artifact, fossil, rock, meteorite, block of
> swiss cheese.  Here in the US, "finders keepers" is a well-established
> tradition, and so is private ownership of things found on some public
> lands.  Thus, we have a grey area here in the US when it comes to such
> finds.
> 
> In Egypt, if you are out in the desert, in no-man's land, and you find
> something, it doesn't belong to you, your family, or your cousin Mort.
>  It belongs to the Egyptian government.  Here in the US, unless there
> is a law expliciting stating otherwise, our historical precedent of
> private ownership prevails.  In Egypt, there is no such history or
> precedent for citizens keeping and legally owning things found on
> Egyptian government land - by default, without explicit laws stating
> such, it belongs to the government, therefore a foreigner (or local)
> cannot export it legally because they do not own it.
> 
> I think that much is clear, regardless of who is making the argument.
>  The real question becomes enforcement, which in Egypt is a very murky
> situation.  Obviously Egypt is not aggressively enforcing their
> borders in regards to meteorites, so this creates a defacto loophole
> for those who wish to exploit the situation.
> 
> This is also the root of a few meteorite-related legal dramas in the
> past.  A government will look the other way, as long as those who are
> exploiting the lack of enforcement don't get blatant or greedy with
> their actions.  But, no matter who you are, if you continue to flaunt
> the rules and customs of another sovereign nation, you will pay the
> price - whether you are a rock star trying to remove a Campo the size
> of a truck, or you are a "tourist" trying to quietly remove some
> desert planetaries from a sultanate.  Nations that do not have a
> history of the freedoms we enjoy, appear much more vague to us
> regarding the definition of their freedoms, because it is taken for
> granted that such freedoms don't exist in the first place.
> 
> Jason is correct that Egypt apparently has no laws explicitly
> addressing meteorites, but that does not mean it is legal to export or
> own them.  It just means that nobody has been blatant enough or greedy
> enough to catch the ire of the Egyptian authorities and force their
> hand.
> 
> Local meteorite hunters are crawling all over the deserts of the US
> and Morocco.  How many local Egyptians are combing their home deserts
> looking for meteorites and selling them, in comparison to those
> nations with a tradition of allowing such?   How many Egyptians are on
> this List, offering meteorites for sale?  The answer to both is - not
> very many.  There is a reason for that.
> 
> As meteorite collectors and dealers, we can play around with
> semantics, look the other way, sweep things under the rug, and pretend
> we know better than the people who actually live in these countries.
> But deep down inside, I think most of us "know the score", and we will
> continue to operate in a manner consistent with our experience and
> values.  When this behavior comes into conflict with another culture's
> values/laws, problems will arise.  When this happens, we'll deal with
> them the best way we can.  Since meteorites are unregulated and there
> is no official trade organization or oversight body, it's left up to
> the individual to decide how to behave in regards to another nation's
> laws and customs.  So far, this has worked pretty well, with a couple
> of obvious exceptions.
> 
> Best regards and happy huntings,
> 
> MikeG
> 
> -- 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone & Ironworks Meteorites
> 
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> On 3/13/11, Jason Utas <meteoritekid at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Carl,
> > You don't seem to understand what I'm saying.
> >
> > 1) The Egyptian government has made no claims regarding meteorite
> > ownership.  The questionable claims were made by a few Egyptian
> > professors.  No one with official governmental standing has said
> > anything.
> >
> > 2) Egypt has no laws in place (currently) that address the ownership
> > of meteorites.  Well, none published.  They tend to be good with such
> > things, and I can only assume that owning an Egyptian meteorite is
> > legal since it has historically never been an issue, and the
> > government has yet to make any sort of statement about it.
> >
> > -- You seem to be suggesting that Egypt may have such laws.  I'm not
> > sure where you got the idea, but even after I  discounted it, you're
> > still pushing it, so I'm not sure what to say.
> >
> > 3) I'd like to point out that the US does have such laws pertaining to
> > meteorites.  They suggest that any and all meteorites found on public
> > land belong to the US government.
> >
> > Carl - you asked, "if the Gov . of Egypt owns it you cannot export it.
> > Isn't it that simple?"
> >
> > 4) In light of that fact that the US owns all meteorites found on
> > public land, by the logic of your statement, it should be illegal to
> > export (or own) any meteorite found on public land in the US.  After
> > all, if all meteorites found on public land belong to the US
> > government, then, surely, one cannot legally export them.
> >
> > So, to answer your original question, no.  Based on all available
> > information, it is not illegal to export meteorites from Egypt,
> > because the country has no laws that restrict the ownership or export
> > of meteorites.  Just some noisy professors who complain when it
> > happens.
> >
> > These sorts of issues are typically not "that simple."  If you want to
> > view things simplistically, I suggest you start asking people to turn
> > over all meteorites found on US public land to the public institution
> > nearest them.
> >
> > Jason
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 8:54 PM,  <cdtucson at cox.net> wrote:
> >> Jason,
> >> Now you lost me?
> >> I was talking about Egyptian material. Specifically Gebel Kamil.
> >> My query had nothing to do with anything American  at all.
> >> So, I say again. If it is illegal to own things there. It goes without
> >> saying it is also illegal to export it.
> >> This has been said to be the case with all things from Egypt. They are
> >> illegal to export.
> >> Period.
> >> Therefore, All meteorites taken or rather trafficked from Egypt must be
> >> illegal at least by Egyptian standards.
> >>
> >> I do know of a similar situation in Mexico. Their pre-Columbian art and
> >> anything else that has been nationalized by the government  Belongs to the
> >> government and is therefore illegal to export.
> >> But, that does not mean it is illegal to import into the USA.
> >> The question them becomes; how do you feel about ownership once the
> >> material reaches USA soil?
> >> It is legally here by US standards but, it is at the same time  illegally
> >> here by Mexican standards.
> >> This is so much recognized that timing becomes a real factor. If for
> >> example you brought the material to the USA prior to the Mexican law being
> >> enacted then generally it is accepted as legal here. However, I do know
> >> that the  ICE agency does seize material brought to the USA soil if it was
> >> brought after such laws took effect in their respective countries.
> >> How this pertains to Gebel kamil seems obvious.
> >> This material is trafficked and therefore illegal by our own ICE agency.
> >> Maybe?
> >> There was a case in Tucson at the 2008 Gem show where American ICE agents
> >> actually seized an entire inventory from a dealer that illegally imported
> >> 4 tons of rare fossils from Argentina. So, as a matter of fact. ICE does
> >> get involved and the outcome of that case was that all of the seized
> >> material was returned to Argentina.
> >> This obviously had NOTHING to do with any cultural anything. It was just
> >> stuff they did not want to be taken from them. That's all.
> >> So, again. this does mean that Gebel Kamil may not be legal here?
> >> I don't know if it is or not.
> >> I am asking how the meteorite community feels about this sort of thing???
> >> Carl
> >> --
> >> Carl or Debbie Esparza
> >> Meteoritemax
> >>
> >>
> >> ---- Jason Utas <meteoritekid at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Hello Carl,
> >>> If we were talking about private ownership, I'd have to agree with
> >>> you.  In this case, there are two things that argue for my
> >>> perspective.
> >>>
> >>> The first is that we in the US (as well as our government) don't seem
> >>> to mind at all when meteorites found on public land (e.g. Holbrook,
> >>> Franconia, Gold Basin, most dry-lake finds, and many other meteorites)
> >>> are retained in private hands and/or shipped out of the country.  Do
> >>> some scientists in the US seem to be angered by this commercial aspect
> >>> of distribution and ownership?  Yes.  Is it against the law?  Doesn't
> >>> seem like it.  You note an interesting problem, though, that I'll deal
> >>> with below.  As I noted in my last email, the government has tried to
> >>> reclaim only a single meteorite ever found on public land by
> >>> litigation, and have appeared wholly uninterested in most, if not all
> >>> other meteorites found on public land.
> >>>
> >>> The second is that the situation in Egypt seems to be analogous more
> >>> than superficially.  The people trying to prevent the export of
> >>> meteorites from Egypt weren't/aren't government officials -- they're
> >>> professors, unaffiliated with the government.  If you read the text of
> >>> Law 117, you would know that it specifically excludes meteorites,
> >>> since they're not of human genesis and have not been altered by people
> >>> in any way (well, Gebel Kamil appears to have not been touched by
> >>> prehistoric people, though I know that some other meteorites have had
> >>> cultural significance in the past).  In other words, there are no
> >>> Egyptian export laws pertaining to meteorites, and the only people
> >>> saying that their export is illegal don't have the right to enforce
> >>> laws, never mind the fact that they seem to be making up new ones.
> >>>
> >>> Getting back to what you said -- you seem to be suggesting that every
> >>> meteorite found on public land in the US belongs to the government and
> >>> should not be:
> >>> 1) exported
> >>> 2) retained in private hands
> >>> 3) sold on an open market
> >>> - and should be turned over to the appropriate officials upon discovery.
> >>>
> >>> I don't think I need to say too much on here about that sort of
> >>> perspective.  The moment you start telling people they're going to
> >>> have to turn over every last piece of Franconia, Glorietta Mountain,
> >>> and _____ Dry Lake xxxx to the government is the moment you start
> >>> getting...nasty emails, to say the least.
> >>>
> >>> I see it as the picking of a wildflower growing in someone else's
> >>> field.  Does it belong to them?  Yes.  Do they care?  No.  Will you
> >>> get arrested for taking it?  Don't be ridiculous.  If they ask for its
> >>> return, though, I think you might be obliged to turn it over. I hope
> >>> that never happens...
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Jason
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 3:23 PM,  <cdtucson at cox.net> wrote:
> >>> > Jason,
> >>> > you said;
> >>> >
> >>> > "While this claim may be correct in the sense that objects on the
> >>> > public land of any country belong to the federal or state government
> >>> > with jurisdiction over the given land, if there are no export laws
> >>> > pertaining to a given resource, it is not illegal to export it. "
> >>> >
> >>> > Isn't this a circular argument?
> >>> >
> >>> > I mean isn't  it irrelevant whether it is legal to export or not legal
> >>> > to export if it does not belong to you in the first place?
> >>> >
> >>> > Again, if the Gov . of Egypt owns it you cannot export it.
> >>> >
> >>> > Isn't it that simple?
> >>> >
> >>> > Which means it is in fact illegal to export.
> >>> >
> >>> > This has been discussed with regard to other minerals and fossils and
> >>> > it was stated that they do not belong to the finder either and
> >>> > therefore they are not yours to take.
> >>> > Just asking?
> >>> > thanks.
> >>> > Carl
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > --
> >>> > Carl or Debbie Esparza
> >>> > Meteoritemax
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > ---- Jason Utas <meteoritekid at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >> Hello Richard, Greg, All,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> To date an estimated 2-3 tonnes of shrapnel fragments have been
> >>> >> recovered, ranging in weight from a few grams to 35 kilograms.  One
> >>> >> regmaglypted individual was found, weighing 83kg.  It was discovered
> >>> >> and retained by the scientific expedition that first explored the
> >>> >> crater, so all that will be available for the likes of us are pieces
> >>> >> of shrapnel produced by the violent destruction of the main mass when
> >>> >> it produced the crater.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> some have asserted that it is illegal to export meteorites from Egypt
> >>> >> without approval from the state.  I looked into the issue, and, as
> >>> >> best I can tell, this is entirely untrue.  It seems as though the
> >>> >> academics involved in the discovery and exploration of the crater
> >>> >> decided to attempt to apply the Egyptian antiquities law that refers
> >>> >> specifically to man-made/cultural artifacts - to meteorites.  In light
> >>> >> of that fact, I believe that all of the specimens exported legal, at
> >>> >> least until Egypt passes a law that acutally prohibits the export of
> >>> >> minerals specimens and/or meteorites.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> See here:
> >>> >> http://www.cprinst.org/cultural-heritage-legislation-in-egypt
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Since there are no clear laws pertaining to meteorites, the real
> >>> >> question is whether or not a meteorite can be said to have "cultural
> >>> >> value."
> >>> >> If we break this idea down, the real question we need to ask pertains
> >>> >> to the definition of what can be termed "cultural."
> >>> >>
> >>> >> To my kowledge, at least in Egypt, 'law 117' has never been applied to
> >>> >> objects that were not human artifacts.  (Never.)
> >>> >> The scientists working on the meteorite claimed that export permits
> >>> >> were required for meteorites because, "Everything which is found in
> >>> >> the Egyptian soil is property of the government."  (Tarek Hussein,
> >>> >> former president of Egypt's Academy of Scientific Research and
> >>> >> Technology)
> >>> >>
> >>> >> http://www.sott.net/articles/show/213262-Deep-impact-market-the-race-to-acquire-meteorites
> >>> >>
> >>> >> While this claim may be correct in the sense that objects on the
> >>> >> public land of any country belong to the federal or state government
> >>> >> with jurisdiction over the given land, if there are no export laws
> >>> >> pertaining to a given resource, it is not illegal to export it.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> For a perfect example, note that all meteorites found on public and
> >>> >> BLM land in the US technically belong to the US government.  Since
> >>> >> there are no US laws pertaining to the export of US meteorites, and
> >>> >> the government does not enforce their ownership of any of these
> >>> >> meteorites (with one historic exception), it is generally viewed as
> >>> >> legal to export meteorites from the US -- even those found on public
> >>> >> land.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Regards,
> >>> >> Jason
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Greg Catterton
> >>> >> <star_wars_collector at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> >> > Prices are interesting with the meteorite. I do know that most of
> >>> >> > the material on the market is "stolen" and should not be sold. Egypt
> >>> >> > does not allow the export of meteorites and last I read, only about
> >>> >> > 2kg was approved for export.
> >>> >> > Its a nice meteorite, but should be considered illegal just like
> >>> >> > Berduc and others that come from countries with harsh export laws.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Greg Catterton
> >>> >> > www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
> >>> >> > IMCA member 4682
> >>> >> > On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
> >>> >> > On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > --- On Fri, 3/11/11, Richard Montgomery <rickmont at earthlink.net>
> >>> >> > wrote:
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >> From: Richard Montgomery <rickmont at earthlink.net>
> >>> >> >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Gebel Kamil
> >>> >> >> To: "'Meteorite-list List'" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> >>> >> >> Date: Friday, March 11, 2011, 9:13 PM
> >>> >> >> Hello List.  Taking a breath for
> >>> >> >> a minute following the disaster in Japan, for welcome
> >>> >> >> relief  (yet God bless them please).... I'll ask about
> >>> >> >> this since I've been wondering for a while since the crater
> >>> >> >> was announced:
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> Do we yet have an estimated TKW of Gebel Kamil?  Also,
> >>> >> >> those first images of the couple (I've only seen two) of
> >>> >> >> complete regmaglypted individuals are somewhere unknown to
> >>> >> >> me, but wow!!  Which reflects on my next query...what
> >>> >> >> other 'individual-shrapnel' occurance events to we know of?
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> I'm fortunate to own a few nice sand-blasted pieces, as
> >>> >> >> many of us are.  The auction prices seem low to me.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> Just curious, and wondering.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> -Richard Montgomery
> >>> >> >> ______________________________________________
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> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
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