[meteorite-list] trips to the Moon (Moon bases and meteorite recovery)

From: Steve Dunklee <steve.dunklee_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 09:08:36 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1309277316.34191.YahooMailClassic_at_web113901.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I agree completely with Randy. I believe it would be almost useless and highly improbable to find an actual meteorite on the moon. Even at 3km a second the impact would destroy all of the meteorite. I also believe it doesnt take a large meteorite to knock material off the moon. A baseball sized rock impacting at 40km/s would bore a hole several meters deep before it vaporized. Following the path of least resistance up to half the vaporized mass and some lunar material would be ejected back up the bore hole like a rifle, and at speeds up to 20km/s. It would be kind of like a bullet bouncing right back at you after hitting a steel plate. the best place to look for meteorites is right here on earth.
Cheers
Steve

--- On Tue, 6/28/11, Randy Korotev <korotev at wustl.edu> wrote:

> From: Randy Korotev <korotev at wustl.edu>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] trips to the Moon (Moon bases and meteorite recovery)
> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Tuesday, June 28, 2011, 2:13 PM
> I have studied, literally, thousands
> of Apollo regolith
> samples.? I've analyzed fines samples (<1-mm
> grain-size fraction)
> taken every half centimeter down several core tubes,
> including the
> 2-m long Apollo 16 deep drill core.? I've analyzed
> several thousand
> individual rock fragments in the 0.05-4 mm size range from
> all 6
> Apollo landing sites and 3 Luna landing sites.? These
> fragments were
> sieved from bulk soil, so there's no astronaut bias.?
> More recently,
> I and my colleagues have examined at least one stone of
> nearly every
> lunar meteorite, most of which are regolith or fragmental
> breccias
> that are loaded with rock clasts.
>
> There aren't any meteorites in the lunar regolith.
>
> OK, that's an overstatement, but it's a practical
> statement.? We see
> the chemical signature of meteorites in nearly every
> sample.? In
> fines samples, concentrations of Ni, Ir, and other
> siderophile
> elements are usually in chondritic proportions and at
> absolute levels
> corresponding to 1-4% chondritic material.? This stuff
> is largely
> from micrometeorites but it must also include material
> vaporized and
> recondensed from impacts of ordinary chondrites.?
> Impact glass and
> crystallized impact melt is ubiquitous in the lunar
> regolith, and
> that where the meteorites go. OK (again), there's Bench
> Crater and
> Hadley Rille, but these are pretty insignificant "rocks"
> compared to
> the mass of lunar regolith that has been examined.?
> One of my
> colleagues recently spotted an olivine grain in a lunar
> meteorite
> that he thinks might have been from a meteorite.? That
> was
> exciting.? We find lots of fragments (globs in NWA
> 5000) of
> iron-nickel metal, but even these usually show the signs of
> having
> melted and resolidified as impact melt cooled.
>
> Think about it.? If a rock hits the Moon at 20-40
> km/s, what's going
> to happen to it?? The Moon isn't Mars.
>
> Randy Korotev
>
>
>
> At 09:06 PM 2011-06-27 Monday, you wrote:
> >Hi James,
> >
> >Well taken, and I agree.? Part of their mission
> was to retrieve lunar
> >samples, but how imagine meteorites could be found if a
> team was put
> >on to the lunar surface with the primary focus of
> finding meteorites
> >and ignoring native lunar materials.? :)
> >
> >Maybe Acme H3 Industries, Inc, will have the spare room
> in their
> >underground base to lease out space to a meteorite
> hunting team, and
> >the necessary scientific equipment to use for the
> mission (modified
> >rovers, infrastructure, etc).
> >
> >Heck, the mining teams might "unearth" (unlune?) buried
> meteorites
> >from under layers of regolith.
> >
> >Best regards,
> >
> >MikeG
> >
> >--
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber
> (Michael Gilmer)
> >
> >Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com
> >Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my
> >News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
> >Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone
> >EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >On 6/27/11, James Beauchamp <falcon99 at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> > > " The Apollo astronauts were not meteorite
> hunters, nor did they have any
> > > specific mission or training involving
> meteorites."
> > >
> > > Mike, I don't think that's quite correct.?
> The Apollo crews were
> > well versed
> > > in the expected geology, and were looking for
> quite a diverse lot of rocks.
> > >? They spent many months training with
> geologists.? Certainly, Dr. Schmitt
> > > was no exception on Apollo 17.? "From Earth
> to the Moon" episode 10 was an
> > > excellent, even a bit romanticized focus on the
> geology focus.
> > > I think the focus was (and should have been) more
> anti-meteorite.? We had
> > > plenty of those.? But we didn't have
> verified lunar samples - to include
> > > cores and other different types.? We needed
> more of those to verify the
> > > origins of our companion, and very little time
> and resources on-hand to get
> > > them.
> > > Just my thoughts on the matter.? Obviously,
> I fully admit I should stay in
> > > my engineering corner, but couldn't help poking a
> little.???:)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 6/27/11, Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] trips to the Moon
> (Moon bases and meteorite
> > > recovery)
> > > To: "Edwin Thompson" <etmeteorites at hotmail.com>
> > > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > > Date: Monday, June 27, 2011, 7:43 PM
> > >
> > > Hi Edwin, Sterling, and List,
> > >
> > > I love a good science-fiction, science-fact, trip
> into speculation
> > > land.? It reminds me of the old pulp sci-fi
> novels from the 50's and
> > > 60's that I have read, with rocketships and moon
> bases.
> > >
> > > Cosmic rays are not the only threat, there are
> also micro-meteorites
> > > and meteorites.? The Late Heavy Bombardment
> is long over, but there is
> > > still a lot of debris peppering the Earth and
> Moon on a regular basis.
> > >? With no atmosphere, the lunar surface is
> basically naked to incoming
> > > impactors.? A base facility on the lunar
> surface would be subject to
> > > high-velocity impacts on a random basis.
> > >
> > > Now we can all imagine how the lunar surface is
> probably littered with
> > > plentiful meteorites.? The Apollo astronauts
> were not meteorite
> > > hunters, nor did they have any specific mission
> or training involving
> > > meteorites.? The first meteorite recovery
> team to be stationed on the
> > > Moon would be the very first people to hunt the
> surface - the opposite
> > > of being "hunted out".? The problem is the
> lethal environment
> > > involved.? It would be a death-trap full of
> meteorites if not handled
> > > properly.? The Apollo astronauts could not
> stay out for the extended
> > > periods necessary to walk a grid or do a
> meaningful amount of
> > > searching for suspect rocks.? Although we
> have made some advancements
> > > since then, the lunar surface is still the most
> hostile, alien, and
> > > lethal environment that an Earthly meteorite
> hunter could imagine.
> > > Our modern day meteornauts on the Moon would have
> to rely on radar,
> > > remote rovers, and man-operated rovers.
> > >
> > > To have any permanent presence on the Moon, the
> surface would need a
> > > warning system for incoming impactors.? We
> can assume an early-warning
> > > detection system, partially automated, that
> consists of satellites and
> > > surface-based radars, telescopes, and other
> sensors.? This warning
> > > system would detect potential impactors that are
> large enough to
> > > damage facilities or personnel. So, we could have
> a lunar rover that
> > > could carry a small team of 2 individuals over a
> long distance with a
> > > meaningful duration (say, several hours, or even
> "overnight" in some
> > > cases.).? These individuals would be
> dispatched to retrieve
> > > large/heavy meteorites that smaller unmanned
> rovers could not pick up.
> > >? They could safely travel the surface
> (relatively speaking) and they
> > > could be warned to evade/avoid a potentially
> deadly strike by the
> > > warning system.? They would still have to
> worry about the rare fluke
> > > micro-meteorite or one that slips through the
> detection system, but it
> > > would be slightly better odds than a crap-shoot.
> > >
> > > The bulk of the searching and retrieval would be
> accomplished by
> > > robust remote-operately rovers.? These would
> be larger than the
> > > current Mars rovers we know so well (thanks for
> the always reliable
> > > updates Mr. Baalke!), but small enough to be
> produced on a low to
> > > modest budget.? Essentially it would be a
> "wander and grab" rover with
> > > a sophisticated optical system than can scan the
> lunar surface in high
> > > resolution and provide a "first person" view to
> the rover operator who
> > > is located miles away in an underground
> facility.???It's main
> > > attributes would be quickness (to cover larger
> amounts of real estate
> > > in a much shorter time span than today's rovers),
> keen eyes (cameras),
> > > and economy of travel (able to stay afield for
> extended periods of
> > > time).
> > >
> > > The rover would also have a robotic arm and a
> collection bin than can
> > > be hermetically sealed.? The operator would
> use the rover to locate
> > > and retrieve all meteorites within the operating
> range of the rover.
> > > Those meteorites which are too large, too heavy,
> or too numerous for
> > > the rover to recover, would be assigned to a
> manned rover mission to
> > > recover the specimens.
> > >
> > > I don't think there would be a lunar base built
> just to retrieve
> > > meteorites.? However, one can envision a
> scientific base that is an
> > > all-purpose facility to house a number of teams
> that are based there
> > > for extended periods of time and are rotated in
> and out.? Astronomers,
> > > chemists, physicists, geologists....the potential
> uses for a lunar
> > > surface facility would be many and varied, and
> meteorites could be one
> > > of those missions.
> > >
> > > Instead of ANSMET, we could have MOONMET - now
> who is going to apply
> > > for the first expedition?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > MikeG
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites &
> Amber (Michael Gilmer)
> > >
> > > Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com
> > > Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my
> > > News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
> > > Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone
> > > EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564
> > >
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6/27/11, Edwin Thompson <etmeteorites at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.space.com/1111-private-moon-trips-forecast.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dear fellow listers, for only 100 million
> dollars you can go to the moon
> > >> and
> > >> gather your own Lunar specimens. It could be
> a very profitable enterprise.
> > >> But the rumor mill has it that China will be
> going to the Moon next. If
> > >> you
> > >> go there be sure to dodge those nasty cosmic
> rays.
> > >>
> > >> There is a society of brainiacs that has
> designed a substantial Moon base.
> > >> Sadly that facility must be built beneath the
> Lunar surface in a volcanic
> > >> cavern to shield the inhabitants from cosmic
> ray exposure.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Cheers, E.T.
> > >>
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Received on Tue 28 Jun 2011 12:08:36 PM PDT