[meteorite-list] OT^2 Vesta

From: Sterling K. Webb <sterling_k_webb_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:30:36 -0500
Message-ID: <FE3EBF89242C4E2CB8879FC989E9D8A8_at_ATARIENGINE2>

Doug,

> ...She was respectful about it.

On the contrary, she pronounced him an Evil
Genius, like the diabolical Wonka himself. That
is what Dahl objected to in his reply:

"She quotes Eudora Welty ? and she wouldn?t quote
her if she didn?t agree with her ? as saying, ?three
kinds of goodness in fiction . . . the goodness of the
writer himself, his worth as a human being. And this
worth is always mercilessly revealed in his writing.?
Having said this, she goes on to announce that
Charlie is ?one of the most tasteless books ever
written for children.? She says a lot of other very
nasty things about it, too, and the implication here
has to be that I also am a tasteless and nasty person."

If the book is (in your opinion) tasteless and nasty,
then YOU must be tasteless and nasty, too. You are
worthless as a human being ("this worth is always
mercilessly revealed in his writing").

It's an astoundingly nasty thing to say about someone
and only a humorless ideologue (or someone even
nastier) would make a flat-out accusation like that,
even if they thought so, in a public forum.

It's not criticism; it is, as you called it, a "flame." If
I had been Dahl I wouldn't have responded by trying
to point out that I was a decent person... really, I am.
You can't talk to people like that. It's a waste of time.


Sterling K. Webb
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
To: <iann at rom.on.ca>; <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>;
<nakhladog at comcast.net>; <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT^2 Vesta


(Canada - see #4 below)

I loved Charlie and wouldn't think of letting anyone's opinion change
that in any way. But understanding what was at the root of the
disagreement is important. Another favorite author, Ursula Le Guin
weighed in strongly on the side of Eleanor Cameron ... To them Charlie
was the Simpsons vs. the light.

I think it is important to put this in context. Charlie took the
country by storm and was so popular among children that plenty of the
old literature was tossed aside. What's your favorite book? I would
have answered Charlie for a time... Eleanor Cameron's opinions do
absolutely nothing to affect my enjoyment and memory of her stories,
they are on their own merit classics and could have been written by the
wicked witch of the west for all I care. I'm not old enough to have
read them originally but my interest in space travel was also
influenced greatly by the first book (which I lucked out and won in a
spelling bee in 3rd grade by a teacher who recognized my early
interests, though my sppeling is still at that level).

Going one step further, I see Cameron's points of view and am receptive
to them. Receptive doesn't mean agreement, just that she is definitely
not a twit! America was modernizing just coming off the civil rights
movement and still dealing with the equal rights amendment fallout for
women, and there were still many fissures. It wasn't a case of one
'twit', it was a full fledged 50% / 50% argument where everyone had an
opinion. Her objections really went something like these four
categories if you read the entire exchange:

1- that children were becoming taken over by television instead of
reading, action, one dimensional villains and heroes, and now the
kiddie literature was going in that direction
2 - that Charlie was a cruel book
3 - that the characters were superficial in Charlie
4 - that locking up a race of African pygmies with green hair and
forcing Charlie's grandparents by that removing them against their
will, to live in the confines of a closed, walled chocolate factory
forever, similar to the situation of the African tribe, was not the way
children should view interactions with elderly.

For #1, it was the beginning of the complaint that television - it
still is a valid argument today
For #2, kids thought it was funny, when other children were stuffed in
tubes or inflate into giant blueberries until they exploded, etc.
Well, plenty of fairy tales are cruel. Eleanor would have loved Harry
Potter for a change.
For #3 Charlie's cohort winners had no character development
whatsoever, they were just there to stereotype and abuse; Charlie's
extreme poverty was never explored, just exploited as a prop and the
solution to life was getting a piece (or factory) of candy. well,
welcome to the real world ;-(
For #4, we are not in the right times to judge the sensitive racial
issue as the country was going through pains at the time - something
absent in Canada, and seeing it as a Canadian, it must have been
tempting for everyone to offer an opinion. She was respectful about
it.

#4 continued: The issue about the elderly has special meaning to me now
and is disconcerting. I never would have understood it until a few
years ago and I really do wish that Charlie was kinder than it was by
describing them as one dimensional old farts you had to force to do
kids things. This is the only thing I would change since the original
edition of Charlie. Funny, other things were changed in later
editions, but I don't believe this was changed at all.

While Eleanor Cameron would rather lock up kids in real life and do her
best to entertain them by stimulating creativity, it is a bit ironic to
me that she was going to restrict them from their candy. But if you
know her books, they all have a sense of hope, adventure, a great deal
of character development and descriptions to feed the mind, and left me
wanting to lock myself up in a basement doing science. Charlie left me
wanting to hunt meteorites while watching the three-stooges. Charlie
seems to have mostly won ... I love both books! I'd put Charlie in a
classic along with Candide and Mushroom Planet in the category of ...
well in its own category, no other book made me feel the emotion of
seeing David and Chuck's rocket they had built from junk components
glistening in to moonlight together with the scintillating Monterey
Bay, and their preparations and space travel ... and the incredibly
woven plot ...

Kindest wishes
and pardon to those who would lynch Mrs. Cameron due to a difference in
opinion!
Both authors are great!
Doug



-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Nicklin <iann at rom.on.ca>
To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug
<mexicodoug at aim.com>; nakhladog at comcast.net; Sterling K. Webb
<sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Mon, Jul 18, 2011 8:14 am
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT Vesta


what, exactly, does her being Canadian have to do with her being a
twit, humourless or thick? she may well have been all of the
aforementioned, however, Canadians have not cornered the market on any
of those traits, and speaking of bricks, people living in glass houses
should be careful about hucking them about.

>>> "Sterling K. Webb" <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net> 7/18/2011 12:36
am >>>

Dear Mushroom Men,

> ...fighting it out with Charlie's authors...

Authors? There is but the ONE author, the late great
Roald Dahl [Wing Commander Dahl, 1916 -- 1990],
author of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, James
and the Giant Peach, The Fantastic Mr. Fox, Matilda,
The Witches, The Twits, Charlie and the Great Glass
Elevator, The BFG, The Gremlins, The Enormous Crocodile,
Esio Trot, George's Marvellous Medicine, Danny, the
Champion of the World, The Giraffe and the Pelly and
Me, The Minpins, The Vicar of Nibbleswicke, The Magic
Finger, The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar and...

When he died in 1990, he was buried with his favorite
snooker cues, some very good burgundy and of course,
lots of chocolates, a box of HB pencils and a power saw
in case it was, well, too confining in there.

Eleanor Frances Butler Cameron (1912?1996) criticized
the book for the Evil Mr. Wonka's "unfeeling attitude
toward the Oompa-Loompas, their role as conveniences
and devices to be used for Wonka?s purposes, their being
brought over from Africa for enforced servitude, and the
fact that their situation is all a part of the fun and games.
I find it regrettable, too, that Willy Wonka, through the
cleverness of his advertising, can triumphantly convince
Charlie that life lived forever inside the factory, enclosed
as in a prison, is the height of all possible bliss, with here
again no word said, nothing expressed, that would
question this idea."

Yes, Mr. Wonka is another Simon Legree, a slave master,
a capitalist exploiter in the mold of diabolical Mr. William
Gates, no doubt. Ms. Cameron objects to Charlie because
it is "fantastical... caricature, [and] removed from reality,"
hence children learn nothing from it. She recommends
"Little Women and Gulliver?s Travels" herself, works of
obvious moral rectitude, I suppose.

Wait! Is Gulliver?s Travels really realistic? She also
recommends Alice In Wonderland which, as we all
know, is not in the least fantastical or like caricature
of any sort and contains none but the morally edifying
characters... She likes Charlotte's Web thoroughly.
Nothing fantastical there; I talk to pigs and spiders
myself...

I think Cameron is a humorless Canadian twit incapable
of understanding irony in any form, a person thoroughly
earnest and thick as a brick. .

If you wish to read her attack on Dahl, his response, her
response to his response, etc., you will find them here:
http://www.hbook.com/history/magazine/camerondahl.asp


Sterling K. Webb
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

----
----- Original Message -----
From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
To: <nakhladog at comcast.net>; <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT Vesta
> Well, Rob ok!
>
> Now, you are absolutely right about that. Curiously you've now
picked
> my absolute favorite children's book of all time (Is it coincidence
or
> did you know), which two kind and generous list members actually had
> me shaking in my shoes by giving me the entire mushroom planet series
> of books. The kicker is ... the author of Mushroom Planet despised
> Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and created quite a scandal and
> old-style flame war fighting it out with Charlie's authors...because
> the premises of Charlie and ..." was a terrible direction to corrupt
> young minds with given the existing body of literature available to
> children. The same concerns are why the Oompa Loompas lost their
> green hair after the book was written. Charlie is one of my top ten
> as well so I guess I'm corrupted, but there was no foul smelling
> sulfur on Vesta like Basidium, Vesta is a sweet as a burst of
> chocolate so we'll have to hang the jury?
>
> As for the green Mushroom people, I still think I'm one of them - and
> I have claimed being from Vesta before (Why not, Sterling is from
> Venus). The whole thing can be reconciled if we are talking about the
> same crowd which staged a journey from Vesta on Basidium-X, a
Vestoid,
> and hitched up to a gaggle of Wild geese to Earth after Mrs.
> Pennyfeather died and they were out of Sulfur (which is not naturally
> ocurring on Basidium-X) in the 1950s, and then established themselves
> in Oompa-Loompish until Mr. Wonka picked them up in the 1970s. I'll
> drink to that ;-)
>
> Best wishes
> Doug
> ref: stolen ideas from Mushroom Planet, Chocolate Factory, Little
> Prince, and another book or two as the arrival at Vesta seems as
> unbelievable as it has been long-awaited
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Wesel <nakhladog at comcast.net>
> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug
> <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> Sent: Sun, Jul 17, 2011 6:14 pm
> Subject: OT Vesta
>
>
> I'll give ya the crater (I didn't know that until now -
> Ries/N?rdlingen being the filming site) but Vesta is more the
> territory of Mr. Bass and the little green people of the Mushroom
> Planet
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wonderful_Flight_to_the_Mushroom_Planet
> Rob Wesel ------------------
> Nakhla Dog Meteorites www.nakhladogmeteorites.com
> www.facebook.com/Nakhla.Dog.Meteorites
> www.facebook.com/Rob.Wesel ------------------
> We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
> Willy Wonka, 1971
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011
> 2:28 PM To: <nakhladog at comcast.net>;
> <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]
> DAWN drives up to Vesta
>> Hey Rob No way I'm wrong about the Oompa-Loompas living secretly at
>> Ries
> Crater! > They absolutely do according to the original movie
:"Charlie
> and the > Chocolate Factory".
>>
>> My apologies for stealing ideas from Charlie and the Chocolate
> Factory and > forgetting how to spell Oompa-Loompa! Oopsa Loopsa ...
>>
>> I should have tread more carefully over your favorite ! To prove the
>> point, let me generally pick up your citation where you stopped, of
>> the sacred text: "I myself use billions of cacao beans every week in
>> this factory. So
> I > talked to the leader of the tribe in Oompa-Loompish and told him
> how his > people could have all the cacao beans they wanted if they
> would only come > with me and live in my factory. Well the leader
was
> so happy he leaped up > in the air and threw his bowl of mashed green
> caterpillars right out his > bong-bong tree window. So, here they
> are!"
>>
>> Rob, the next question is - where is "here"? It certainly sounds
> like > England or Wales, but ... when Charlie finally gets to look
> over the > factory in the great glass Wonkavator elevator that goes
> up, down sideways > and anywhere else you want, the movie shows him
> leaving the factory > hovering over the beautful village.
>>
>> What village? N?rdlingen, the very same location of Ries Crater, of
>> course! Not only that, the Oompa-Loompas are diogenite crazed - they
>> have
> green > hair and were grown on a diet of green caterpillars in their
> original > homeland where they developed the slingshot technology for
> green sample > return missions and the great glass elevator itself,
> both of which were > originally defenses against the snozzwangers you
> mentioned!
>>
>> This defense rests ;-) Best wishes Doug PS the reason I didn't mark
>> this OT, is because next time you get to
> visit > Ries Crater you can see how the beauty of the town of
> N?rdlingen (Bavaria, > Germany) had it selected as the town of the
> chocolate factory and thus > launch pad for the next adventure when
> the elevator was used as a space > ship and docked on the space
> station (the book was written long before the > ISS) where some
> terrible astronaut-eating aliens were that would eat > everyone on
> Earth, except they can't come down to the planet without >
> spontaneously turning into meteorites (or that's how I remember it -
> maybe > it was just "shooting stars") ...
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Wesel <nakhladog at comcast.net> To:
>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug
> <mexicodoug at aim.com>
>> Sent: Sun, Jul 17, 2011 3:50 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] DAWN
>> drives up to Vesta Dude It's Oompa-Loompa and they live in
>> Loompaland, not Vesta ?Then
> you?ll > know all about it,? said Mr Wonka. ?And oh, what a terrible
> country it is! > Nothing but thick jungles infested by the most
> dangerous beasts in the > world ? hornswogglers and snozzwangers and
> those terrible wicked > whangdoodles. A whangdoodle would eat ten
> Oompa-Loompas for breakfast and > come galloping back for a second
> helping. When I went out there, I found > the little Oompa-Loompas
> living in tree houses. They had to live in tree > houses to escape
> from the whangdoodles and the hornswogglers and the > snozzwangers.
> And they were living on green caterpillars, and the > caterpillars
> tasted revolting, and the Oompa-Loompas spent every moment of > their
> days climbing through the treetops looking for other things to mash >
> up with the caterpillars to make them taste better ? red beetles, for
> > instance, and eucalyptus leaves, and the bark of the bong-bong
tree,
> all > of them beastly, but not quite so beastly as the caterpillars.
> Poor little > Oompa-Loompas! The one food that they longed for more
> than any other was > the cacao bean. But they couldn?t get it. An
> Oompa-Loompa was lucky if he > found three or four cacao beans a
year.
> But oh, how they craved them. They > used to dream about cacao beans
> all night and talk about them all day. You > had only to mention the
> word ?cacao? to an Oompa-Loompa and he would start > dribbling at the
> mouth. .' >
http://static-l3.blogcritics.org/10/12/22/150635/oopma.jpg
> Rob > Wesel ------------------ > Nakhla Dog Meteorites
> www.nakhladogmeteorites.com > www.facebook.com/Nakhla.Dog.Meteorites
> www.facebook.com/Rob.Wesel ------------------ > We are the music
> makers... and we are the dreamers of the dreams. Willy > Wonka,
> 1971 -------------------------------------------------- > From:
> "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 10:36 >
> AM To: <majbaermann at web.de>; <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> >
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] DAWN drives up to Vesta
>>> Hi Matthias! Do you think your Tatahouine was mined on Vesta by the
> Oumpa >> Lumpas! Unfortunately all the kings horses and all the kings
> men couldn't >> put Tatahouine together again, so we'll never know
> with 100.000...000% >
>> certainty if 99% of them all ever had any fusion crust.... :-( :-)
>>>
>>> Won't you be surprised when you find that Vesta actually was mined
> by
>> sly > Oumpas living under Ries Crater that have a giant slingshot,
> perfect > sense > of masses, orbits and atmospheres of everything and
> have been > mining Vesta > to songs that have been heard for
thousands
> of years ... by > hurling > projectiles on precisely calculated
> billiard-like trajectories > at that > return samples to Earth. Of
> course, each time a space-faring > gaggle of > geese pass by the
> returning stones, Vesta stones being so > attractive to > their eyes,
> they pick them right out of the path and bring > them to earth >
> during June and November migrations, and set them down > somewhere in
> Africa > where they pick at them like chicken feed and love > the
> icing, until they > shatter into zillions of pieces. - And you >
> thought you had Tatahouine > figured out now that you have that
> beautiful > new stone ;-) But maybe you > are on to something about
> why it is so > difficult to know Vesta's "perfect" > mass!
>>>
>>> Happy Day! Doug
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Received on Mon 18 Jul 2011 04:30:36 PM PDT