[meteorite-list] AD(?) - Sikhote-Alin in tree

From: John Birdsell <johnbirdsell_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:27:46 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <752908.78205.qm_at_web110203.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Good call David! Now that you mention it, those do look more like roots to me
than branches.



-John




----- Original Message ----
From: David R. Vann <drvann at sas.upenn.edu>
To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 1:54:32 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] AD(?) - Sikhote-Alin in tree


I would like to add that the picture, as I interpret it, is a tree *stump*. It
is upside-down in Anne's picture. The 'branches' are departing the trunk in the
pattern typical of roots. The age of the tree would be determined based on the
rings in the piece laying on the table. It appears to me that the tree grew
around the SA piece as it lay buried, consequently an age less than or near to
the SA would be expected. There seems to be very little to no disruption
(shattering) of the wood that I can see -only bending as one might see in a root
growing around a rock. Thus, this may have been a fragment that hit soil,
followed by enclosure in the growing tree. If you invert the photo (it will look
more like a tree trunk), the placement of the fragment is below the main trunk.
A moving piece would have come in on a very low angle to penetrate the tree in
the *apparent* manner. Additionally, I would expect the oxidation patterns for
meteorites that imbedded in wood to be different from that in soil (not possible
to evaluate in a photo). At least, there should be iron staining or increased
iron in the wood after impact due to natural organic acids in the tree sap as it
repaired the wound. Conversely, a piece in the soil would be enclosed by roots
similar to way they would enclose rock, and the root would have bark covering
the wood at the interface with the fragment at all times, so there would be no
iron staining.
Interpretation is complicated by the fact that a second tree (probably a second
trunk of the main tree) has grown roots that are interlaced with those of the
larger trunk. If you invert the photo, the pear-shaped form on the right (with a
circle in the center) is the remnants of the second trunk, which died and fell
away from the tree years ago. The two yellowish ovals are two roots that were
cut to fell the tree or after felling to better show the fragment. The pinkish
area around the fragment is a larger root (that was plunging into the soil) that
was split when the tree was uprooted. This split revealed the fragment. The
split root shows a rotted, hollow area toward the right, which when combined
with the cluster of three smaller roots (under the yellow ovals), provided a
weak point for the split to begin. There is a crescent-shaped area of bark
departing the fragment; this is the fusion/grafting line between the two large
roots that are in the lower left of the (inverted) photo. This provides another
point of weakness.
I would love to see this in life, for a better evaluation, but am afraid that I
cannot make the Tucson show. Someday perhaps.





David R. Vann, Ph.D.
Forest Biogeochemistry and Physiology
Department of Earth and Environmental Science
THE UNIVERSITY of PENNSYLVANIA
240 S. 33rd St.
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6316
drvann at sas.upenn.edu
office: 215-898-4906
FAX: 215-898-0964


| -----Original Message-----
| From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
| [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On
| Behalf Of Dolores Hill
| Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 1:54 PM
| To: John Birdsell
| Cc: Impactika at aol.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
| Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] AD(?) - Sikhote-Alin in tree
|
|
| Dear meteorite-list,
|
| I cannot resist commenting on this issue. I have studied
| dendrochronology and I am very familiar with the UA Tree-Ring Lab
| (LTRR). It is much more complicated than one might realize. In
| addition to "number of tree-rings/years," the growth _/pattern/_ is
| extremely important in cross-dating a tree sample according to a
| particular regional "chronology." Depending on the species and/or
| environmental conditions, there may even be "missing rings or double
| rings." The number of rings also depends on when the tree
| first started
| growing and when it died (naturally or was cut down) or was
| sampled by
| increment core.
|
| I have seen fascinating photos of supposed Sikhote-Alin
| meteorites stuck
| in trees and invited the owners to allow LTRR experts to
| examine them.
| So far the owners seem to get cold feet. LTRR has scientists and
| visiting researchers who have first-hand experience with
| Russian trees
| and forests. They are happy to provide assistance:
| http://ltrr.arizona.edu/ If authentic, the samples might aid
| studies of biological effects of meteorite impacts. It would
| be best if
| the original location of the tree is known; another case for careful
| documentation.
|
| Regards,
| Dolores Hill
| Lunar & Planetary Laboratory
| University of Arizona
|
|
| John Birdsell wrote:
| > Hi Ted....good point. If a tree branch was collected many,
| many years
| > ago, it
| > could have fewer growth rings, and might also be expected
| to show some signs of
| > its age.
| >
| >
| > -J
| >
| > I have seen three specimens that exceed 80 years and
| several that are
| > too
| > young, so be careful. A Russian dealer friend of mine says
| that all of the
| > genuine specimens were gathered years ago, but some may
| have been kept for
| > future sale as we know the Arab dealers do with meteorites.
| >
| > Be careful out there.
| >
| > Ted Bunch
| >
| >
| >
| > ----- Original Message ----
| > From: John Birdsell <johnbirdsell at yahoo.com>
| > To: John Birdsell <johnbirdsell at yahoo.com>; Darryl Pitt
| > <darryl at dof3.com>;
| > Impactika at aol.com
| > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
| > Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 10:25:22 AM
| > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] AD(?) - Sikhote-Alin in tree
| >
| > One year's growth should be represented by a light colored early
| > growth band AND
| >
| > a dark colored late growth band...
| >
| >
| > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrochronology
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| > ----- Original Message ----
| > From: John Birdsell <johnbirdsell at yahoo.com>
| > To: Darryl Pitt <darryl at dof3.com>; Impactika at aol.com
| > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
| > Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 10:04:33 AM
| > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] AD(?) - Sikhote-Alin in tree
| >
| > Count the annual growth rings in the base of the
| branch....if a tree
| > was alive
| > in 1947 there should be more than 64.
| >
| >
| > -J
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| > ----- Original Message ----
| > From: Darryl Pitt <darryl at dof3.com>
| > To: Impactika at aol.com
| > Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
| > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 8:35:15 PM
| > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] AD(?) - Sikhote-Alin in tree
| >
| >
| > Hi,
| >
| > While I am not challenging the integrity of Anne's
| specimen, there is
| > something
| > I should share: about a decade ago I was informed by an
| unimpeachable source as
| >
| >
| > to the existence of what is basically a nursery outside of
| Vladivostok
| > where SAs
| >
| >
| > have been wedged into the knots and the forked limbs of a rapidly
| > growing specie
| >
| >
| > of tree for later "harvest." I was informed that branches are
| > frequently bound
| > around the meteorite to assist in the embedment. I saw one
| such example and it
| > was...impressive.
| >
| >
| > Little scary, right?
| >
| > In an effort that provides a faster turnaround, I was recently
| > informed
| > lightning rods are being inserted into strategic locations
| in Saharan sands in
| > the effort to produce and harvest flared saharite---the
| beautifully flanged
| > Saharan fulgurites.
| >
| >
| > Certainly less scary as there is no effort to deceive. Clever,
| > actually---and
| > yet bothersome as well.
| >
| >
| > d,
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| > On Jan 11, 2011, at 8:23 PM, Impactika at aol.com wrote:
| >
| >
| >> Hello,
| >>
| >> Since Michael Blood mentionned Sikhote-Alins embedded in
| trees in his
| >> latest "Market Trends" article, and warned everybody
| against them. And since I
| >>
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >> have received a few questions about the one I aquired a few months
| >> ago, let me
| >>
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >> try to set the record straight:
| >>
| >> First, here are 2 pictures, the whole thing, and a close-up:
| >>
| >> _http://www.impactika.com/images/satree.jpg_
| >> (http://www.impactika.com/images/satree.jpg)
| >>
| >> _http://www.impactika.com/images/satree2.jpg_
| >> (http://www.impactika.com/images/satree2.jpg)
| >>
| >> It is much bigger than any I have seen before, and the
| Sikhote-Alin
| >> is
| >> truly inside the tree.
| >> And a member who happens to be an hoticulturist looked at
| the pictures and
| >> wrote: "Looks pretty real to me Anne! It probably
| impailed itself into the
| >> tree and then the tree grew around it, which explains the
| "bark" around it".
| >> (Thank you Craig!)
| >> Also I counted the rings, not easy, but there are at least
| 45. And I trust
| >> the Russian dealer I bought it from.
| >> So, yes I believe that it is the real/authentic deal, not a scam.
| >>
| >> And if you want to have a better look at it, it will be in
| my room in
| >> Tucson (Hotel Tucson City Center, Formerly InnSuites, Room 322).
| >> Speaking of Sikhote-Alin, you will also see there two
| Sikhote-Alins in "as
| >> found" condition that I obtained from the Vernadsky
| Institute. Yes, with all
| >> the paperwork!
| >>
| >> See you all there very soon.
| >>
| >> Anne M. Black
| >> http://www.impactika.com/
| >> IMPACTIKA at aol.com
| >> President, I.M.C.A. Inc.
| >> http://www.imca.cc/ ______________________________________________
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| >>
| >
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Received on Wed 12 Jan 2011 04:27:46 PM PST