[meteorite-list] Fw: Re: Surface Area or Weight

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 17:49:57 +0100
Message-ID: <003001cbcad4$e3a797c0$aaf6c740$_at_de>

Yes Sir,

I wanted only to outline that again.

Was btw. always the main factor.
Cohen made his huge price compilation...
 
(a pity that many curators of today don't know it, because those were the prices their antecessors still had to pay, and knowing that, they would avoid such painful demonstrations of incompetence in public media, that meteorites would be so much more expensive today. In fact it would be even sufficient, when they would check in the archives, what all their antecessors had spent for sums for the meteorites. For me, if I would have the privilege to be even paid to be a curator of a famous collection, it would be a matter of course for me to do that and to know the history of my collection, how it was built up, from where the particular specimens were acquired ect..).

Cohen made his price compilation only to see if Wuelfing's trade formula for meteorites (which based on the two factors: tkw and type) would be reflected in the market prices.

But Wuelfing's values weren't.
Those meteorites, where the dealer's and private collectors had good access too, had a tendency to remain below these values, those meteorites kept mainly in national collections or from countries with legal obstacles were more expensive than the formula predicted.

So that what the Bevanists don't get, is since 130 years no secret anymore.
And Cohen was one of the really greatest meteoricists of his times.
A pity that he died too early.

And now I'm out of office for a while,
No worries in case, Count, you still want a framed R-slice, (the other 14g are gone too),
we serve strictly according the chronology of incoming emails.

Best!
Martin


-----Forwarded Message-----
>From: Count Deiro <countdeiro at earthlink.net>
>Sent: Feb 12, 2011 8:09 AM
>To: Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Surface Area or Weight
>
>List and mein guter Freund Martin,
>
>Martin has said "One of the most important points, which overrules most of the others...availability.."
>
>I agree and that factor was in my assumptions where I mention "current availability".
>
>Regards to all,
>
>Count Deiro
>IMA 3536 METSOC
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
>>Sent: Feb 12, 2011 3:20 AM
>>To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Surface Area or Weight
>>
>>Hello Count,
>>
>>one of the most important points, which overrules most of the others would be in my eyes:
>>
>>Availability
>>
>>It's in principle the same as in philately, numismatics ect...
>>That what is most difficult to obtain, no matter what it is, or of which quality, fetches the highest price.
>>
>>It's funny - you know me, I am very worried, how some bushed minds these years are trying to bring national and World meteoritics to a halt in introducing legal bans of ownership, export, hunting and trade -
>>and their main argument is unison, that private collecting would have made meteorites unaffordable for science.
>>(In fact historically just the opposite had happened, like any curator, who takes his job seriously, knows).
>>
>>But what are by far the most expensive meteorites on the market?
>>
>>Those where most of the tkw is locked in museums and institutional collections and where almost no grams are available on the free market.
>>And that independently from the histrorical meaning or the type of the location.
>>
>>Hence just these locations and meteorites those protagonists already do have and always had at hand in their collections.
>>
>>Historic example - India. India - with the exception of a short episode in czarist Russia, was quite the only country, which had a strong protectionism and a ban of private ownership of meteorites, in very early times.
>>
>>Consequence - already in 19th century, at Cohen's times, Indian meteorites where by far the most expensive meteorites of the world. For an ordinary chondrite from India, one had to pay 10, 20, 40 times more than for an ordinary chondrite falling in Europe or Northern America.
>>
>>So still today, a meteorite, from the same period, a fall from the same historical year, can cost a fraction of a meteorite fallen or found in the same year, even if it has a much lower tkw and is of a much rare type, than the latter locked in institutional collections or from a country banning ownership and export.
>>
>>Other modern more instantaneous example.
>>Due to certain circumstances only small amounts of Tagish Lake were firstly allowed to leave the country and to be sold on the free market. The availability was therefore strongly and artificially limited.
>>Therefore - an quite unique event - it was unnecessarily insanely priced. It had cost four, five times more than any historic Ivuna or Orgueil at that time. ...with very bad consequences, as the eyewitnesses and others were not allowed to rescue more material, but those, who forbade them to do so, then omitted to save most of the tkw,
>>the national geological survey had to buy from the finders in the end material at this extremely high price, which they by their own had created in not allowing material leaving the country - and in the end the Canadian tax payer paid 800,000 CND - with inflation 1 million USD today - for samples, which without that intervention of the Canadian survey to restrict the availability would have cost 200,000 USD - and if they would have allowed the normal people to rescue the main load of that meteorite in a timely manner - perhaps only 50,000$.
>>...well, a sad accident,
>>But other than the Australians, Omani, Argentines, Danish, Algerians and so on,
>>the Canadian meteoricists are intelligent and reasonable people, and other than the Bevanists of our days,
>>they sat personal narrow-minded motives and that almost folkloristic hatefulness towards private collectors aside,
>>and decided for the need of science to ease the legal practice.
>>With very convincing success.
>>Remember Buzzard Coulee - because private collectors and professional hunters were not only allowed to collect them, but also got export permits - it was cheaper than any Whetstone or Mifflin.
>>And that, what Arnold & Notkin did with historical Brenham in USA,
>>became then suddenly possible at all with historical Springwater in Canada.
>>Or think to the now still growing tkw - after years - of the newer Canadian crater iron (where I always forget the name).
>>
>>Or third example, how decisive availability is for a meteorite price and how fast a changed availability will change the prices.
>>
>>Sikhote-Alin. When it firstly became a little better available in the 1990ies, Sikhote was paid up to 9$ a gram (then). After 2000, when our industrious Russian colleagues brought huge amounts to the free market,
>>we had a period of 5 or 6 years, where the standard price, also for the best quality was 0.30$ a gram.
>>Now the last years the strewnfield was exhausted.
>>And today the collectors and curators are crying, that they have to pay for pieces, where they now say Aaaah and Ooooh, but where just still 3-4 years ago on each large show hundreds of such were available and dozens a week on ebay,
>>again 1, 2 sometimes 3$/g - and for those smaller ones, where it was always a fun on the shows, to pick the small super-oriented from the dozens of boxes - all at the same price - 5$ or sometimes 10$ a gram.
>>
>>
>>Another point would be,
>>if your point "Provenance" is meant only for "Pedegree"-specimens,
>>that one should include there also the geographical provenance.
>>An H5 or an L6 falling in USA today will get 20-40$ a gram and more,
>>the same H5 and L6 with the same quality of the specimens falling in a Maghreb country will be paid with 2-4$ a gram. (Still...).
>>
>>
>>Third idea would be the point: Prestige.
>>
>>The prestige a collector acquires with a specimen.
>>(That could include several other points like Pedigree, aesthetics and new fashions like that Hammer-thing).
>>
>>Prestige would help to cover such occurrences like e.g. that a West was paid like historic Weston
>>or that for a LaPize or an Almahata so very unusual prices were paid.
>>
>>Aesthetics,
>>that is an own segment of the market, outstanding specimens, specimens with unusual features,
>>specimens of an unusual quality are dealt uncoupled from their fellows of the same find.
>>There the pork-belly-method: Standard price of the locales or that meteorite + a little x if it's nice,
>>isn't applied. They are sold like other high-end pieces in other fields of collection,
>>they are sold as true one of a kind-specimens.
>>
>>On large scale, like for instance a super oriented complete planetary,
>>as well as on a little scale, for specimens which show particularities other specimens of the same meteorite or of the same type do not have.
>>
>>Example for the latter, hehe, take the NWA 6022.
>>It deserves a much higher price - but because we set it somewhat below the standard starting price of the most available and common, and therefore cheapest R - NWA 753,
>>it sells extremely quickly - much faster than a more common rumurutiite would go at that price.
>>- because the fantastic rim, aside other unusual aspects, is not found in any other R-chondrite,
>>such a feature even the oldest veteran collector hasn't yet in his collection
>>and it is aesthetically seen an amazing eye-catcher, hence something the big collector doesn't let disappear in the drawers with the reference sample, but sets it somewhere in one of his showcases.
>>
>>Hence that R, which you're about missing out.
>>Would have been sold out in less than a day, though this time, many of our US-collectors simply hadn't seen the AD, cause they were in Tucson,
>>so forgive me my laziness to show it again to some of them in private mails and to abuse that posting for a shameless advertizing (which in the end will make at least 4 collectors very happy).
>>Anyway 3 slices and the partial endcut left. (Additionally to those marked as sold, the 14.0g is gone too).
>>
>>http://www.chladnis-heirs.com/special-nwa6022.html
>>
>>Best!
>>Martin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
>>Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Count Deiro
>>Gesendet: Samstag, 12. Februar 2011 02:19
>>An: Thunder Stone; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Surface Area or Weight
>>
>>Greg and List,
>>
>>I make the following assumptions as to Fair Market Value if we are dealing with a representative, equal weight, specimen of the same classification.
>>
>>Ranking in order of desireability and value to an average collector. Not a specialist in analysis, or classification, or other defined, non collecting, motivation.
>>
>>Total weight and rarity of the classification.
>>Weight of the specimen.
>>Provenance.
>>Historic
>>A hammer.
>>A fall.
>>An oriented crusted individual.
>>A crusted individual.
>>A polished crusted endcut.
>>A polished crusted full slice.
>>A polished crusted partial slice.
>>A frag.
>>A bessie spec, or micro.
>>
>>Thin sections are a world of their own and can be of more value in weight than an individual.
>>Preparation in cut, etch and polishing materially affect value.
>>Higher ratios of field to dimension increase value in slices.
>>Mounting, info cards and packaging affect value of all specimens.
>>The current availability is always an up and down factor.
>>Stone meteorites tend to bring more money per gram than mesosiderites, or irons, all things considered. particularly in the rarer classifications.
>>
>>These are my off the top of my head assumptions based on the past two years of blowing my entire spendable income of meteorites. Go ahead! Tear it apart!
>>
>>Count Deiro
>>IMCA 3536 MetSoc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Received on Sat 12 Feb 2011 11:49:57 AM PST