[meteorite-list] Mercury Fragments on earth (not)

From: Shawn Alan <photophlow_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 13:22:18 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1312489338.38229.YahooMailClassic_at_web160112.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Craig Moody

I have so say that is a great question you brought up on the topic of Vesta and the probability of meteorite hit Earth from that particular asteroid considering there are over 10,000 asteroid in the solar system. I have to wonder how could there be 997 meteorites from Vesta. I have read that the Oxygen Isotope has variations through out the HED group.

Here is an abstract taken from Oxygen isotope evidence for rapid mixing of the HED meteorite parent body

by

U.H. Wiechert a;
, A.N. Halliday a, H. Palme b, D. Rumble c


"The 16O, 17O and 18O abundances of howardites, eucrites, and diogenites have been used to assign them to a single
?HED? parent body, thought to be asteroid 4 Vesta. We report the first evidence of oxygen isotopic heterogeneity
among HED meteorites indicating incompletely mixed sources. New high-precision oxygen isotope measurements of
34 HED meteorites reveal that most have the same v17OP, consistent with a very rapid early history of large-scale
mixing on Vesta. However, howardites are on average very slightly enriched in 16O, whereas Ibitira, Caldera,
Pasamonte, and ALHA78132 are 16O-depleted compared to other investigated eucrites. The v17OP of Ibitira is
completely different from all other HEDs measured."

Now if scientist use oxygen isotope to group meteorites to parent body why has this study showed that within 34 meteorite from HED that the oxygen isotope have variations through out the 34 meteorites? I wonder if this holds true with Martian meteorites and meteorites from the Moon?


Shawn Alan
IMCA 1633
eBaystore
http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html


[meteorite-list] Mercury Fragments on earth (not)
Craig Moody meteoritesnorth at hotmail.ca
Thu Aug 4 14:55:50 EDT 2011

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Hi Doug and list:

I read somewhere that Mercury was hit long ago by something big and powerful enough to eject most of the planet's crust, leaving only the core. With an impact of this magnitude, do you not think it is possible that some ejecta got past venus and ended up on earth? The odds are about the same as having material from one particular asteroid landing on earth. While on the Vesta subject, how do the powers-that-be know for sure that material is from that particular asteroid? I mean since there are tens of thousands of asteroids, many of them are sure to be of the same mineral composition, especially if the asteroid belt was once a larger planet that got pulled apart by the gravitational forces of Jupiter and the sun. Who is to say that they have come from the belt at all. Space is big, and there is a lot of stuff floating around. Is it not possible that some meteoritic material could be from out of our solar system? Things that make you go Hmmmm.....
Just my 2 cents worth :)

Craig Moody
IMCA#6276
----------------------------------------

> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com

> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 03:59:37 -0400

> From: mexicodoug at aim.com

> Subject: [meteorite-list] Mercury Fragments on earth (not)

>

> Dear List,

>

> Mercury as a source for meteorites arriving on earth seems like the

> most unlikely occurrence. I hope someone can point out where I am

> wrong, since it would be wonderful to imagine the possibility that

> material from the Swift Planet could every make the upstream trip here.

> It is easy to think hey ... we have Lunar and Martian material here,

> dream of Vestal material, so why no Mercury, Venus, etc... as if all

> were equally possible.

>

> But they are not equally possible. Far, Far, Far from equally

> possible. If things were equally possible all you would have to do is

> ask two supermodels out on a date, and odds are one would accept,

> right? - There are only 2 answers and *if we assume yes/no is a 50/50

> proposition...* ? Hmmm ... a most unlikely occurrence.... and for most

> not a 50/50 probability. Same goes for this present case.

>

> The Moon is obviously within Earth's gravitational domination, so it is

> natural that we would have a high possibility if material falling here

> if it can escape the moon (escape velocity: 2.4 km/s), and Earth is the

> local drain for the moon.

>

> Mars (escape velocity: 5.0 km/s) is upstream from the Sun to Earth so

> it doesn't seem like any surprise that fragments ejected could find

> their way to Earth.

>

> So why not a Jupiter meteorite? I don't think that is likely since

> Jupiter (escape velocity on 'surface' 59.5 km/s) extremely greedy with

> its material, requiring escape at five times faster than on Earth.

>

> But what about Mercury. Mercury's escape velocity is 4.3 km/s. But

> it's downstream from Earth and the Sun is a huge gravitational drain

> plug that devours material. If you think Earth gets a piece of Mars,

> imagine what the Sun gets from Mercury. To escape the Sun ... that is

> to go upstream towards Earth, at Mercury, any fragment would have to

> battle an escape velocity of 67.7 km/s. That's greater than Jupiter !

> You might say ... ok, you don't have to actually escape the Sun, only

> make it from Mercury to Earth. Well, at Earth, the escape velocity is

> 42 km/s from the Sun. That's a loss of 25 km/s ... and don't forget

> the extra 4.3 km/s to get away from Mercury as well ...

>

> Their numbers are probably greater than summing them, but let's just do

> that so it stays simple call it a minimum of 30 km/s imparted velocity

> to tether that fragment of Mercury to Earth. What lucky rock ejected

> by chance in the direction of Earth could handle that energy and board

> a greyhound (bus) to Earth?

>

> It seems to me about as likely that we'd get a fragment from Jupiter's

> surface if indeed there is a surface instead of a thick damping stew.

> Once something (plasma?) gets ejected from Jupiter, though it is smooth

> sailing to Earth if the direction happens to be right because the Sun

> still sucks up anything not in a circular or ellipsoid orbit, like the

> big drain hole that got the whole solar system moving to start with.

> (Yes, everything orbits the Sun for pretty much the same reason the

> water makes circles around the hole in toilet bowl on its way down).

>

> So if by brute force, Mercury is unlikely to be a source of material,

> how about by some other celestial mechanism? Something similar to

> Jupiter's orbital resonances, perhaps? I don't think that is very

> likely. Earth would be the Jupiter by mass, though Venus might be

> argued. But Mercury is not the Swift Planet for nothing ... there is

> no way orbital resonance could build up with Mercury constantly

> swinging by.

>

> It gets rapidly less likely anything else might work ... like, how

> about a hand-off from Mercury to Venus then to Earth. The energy is

> still huge to get to Venus, but unless JPL tweaks a slingshot out of it

> with the assistance of propulsion, I just don't see it happening.

> Well, then I would think the argument dropped to a statistical one ...

> It would be ... very very unlikely but when 10,000,000,000 pieces are

> ejected from Mercury and 0.000001% actually do this *a miracle happens*

> and we are left with 100 meteorites that make it to Earth. OK, but by

> the same logic then there would be 1,000,000,000 lunar meteorites lying

> around. So go find one ... no ... make that go find two - from

> Mercury, I mean. Angrites are more than two... Kind of weakens the

> angrite theory.

>

> The last resort might be to argue a hugely eccentric orbit with a major

> axis reaching earth. I don't know about this one, but there is the

> detail of Venus clearing its own neighborhood, not to mention Mercury

> and Earth runs at a snail?s pace compared to them. There are no

> Vulcanoid asteroids and so, so so few Interior earth Asteroids ...

> like a dozen? And how eccentric are their orbits ... Maybe some

> asteroid scanning guy can speak authoritatively here but I have a

> feeling that the answer won?t budge from almost nothing to nothing plus

> epsilon.

>

> Anyway, ET's angrite without equal and amazing story of adventure that

> goes with it ... got me to thinking about the debate we've heard many

> times now and when I look at these numbers, I just can buy it. Is

> there some other argument being made that was omitted here ... besides

> Mercurians shooting at Earth with scaled up accelerator space guns? I

> hope so, but darned if I can think of it! The situation is very

> different from Vestoid since there is no supraJupiter undisturbed ...

> around with billions of circulating rocks smashing into each other much

> further away from the Sun's powerful gravitational grasp.

>

> Kindest wishes

> Doug

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Received on Thu 04 Aug 2011 04:22:18 PM PDT