[meteorite-list] NYT story

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 13:37:17 +0200
Message-ID: <002d01cbf44e$fba8c800$f2fa5800$_at_de>

Hello Shawn,

I think one aspect in your thoughts isn't fully correct. Understandable, because you're occupied with historical meteorites.
Historical meteorites are by far the most expensive meteorites you can have. Why are they so expensive? Because of the poor availability.
Why is so few available - rrrrrright, because the very most of their tkws is locked away in institutional collections.
Hence they are not the problem, the researchers and scientists do already have them.
Shawn, this material stems from the times, where there existed not more than 2000-3000 meteorites on the whole World.

Times have changed. We have now a couple of tens of thousands meteorites more, within only 3 decades. The Antarctic ones and the desert finds.
Meteorite science, the advance in knowledge, the new results - that all is done by means of these new finds.
It's all about them.
And they don't cost a thing anymore. That black market, profit thing - it is a true sham debate, a discussion nobody in expert circles is having, but which is carried in only from laymen from outside.

You have to see the dimensions. Let me help you. Let's take the Bulletin Database.
I give you now a summary by types of all that what was found - in 35 years - by ANSMET, NIPR, PRIC, KOREAMET, EUROMET together.
And the same only for that what - in 11 years - was coming from NWA.
Only NWA, the couple of thousands of entries for the other Sahara finds (the DaGs, HaHs, SAHs, Acfers, Tanezroufts) I leave out, as well as the complete Oman (Dhofar, JaH, Shisr...). Only NWA:






              Antarctica NWA

Acap/Lod 2.73 kg 25.18 kg

Angrites 0.02 kg 7.24 kg

Brachinites 0.25 kg 8.16 kg

Aubrites 5.37 kg 11.14 kg (still biased by some El Haggouina pairings)

Carbonaceous

CB 0.13 kg 0.90 kg

CH 0.21 kg 0.42 kg

CI 0.80 kg -

CK 4.50 kg 32.86 kg

CM 18.94 kg 5.98 kg

CO 36.10 kg 20.29 kg

CR 3.61 kg 10.85 kg

CV 15.64 kg 81.30 kg


Diogenites - 83.12 kg

Eucrites 47.97 kg 116.56 kg

Howardites 11.88 kg 32.63 kg

K-Chondrites 0.02 kg -

Lunar 5.43 kg 22.28 kg

Martian 27.80 kg 8.15 kg

Mesosiderites 34.06 kg 259.50 kg

Pallasites 202.47 kg 6.25 kg

R-Chondrites 1.38 kg 30.57 kg

Ureilites 16.31 kg 49.40 kg

Winonaites 0.08 kg 1.38 kg


For the irons, I'm too lazy, there we have more from Antarctica than from NWA,
And the ordinary chondrites.. well they are not so interesting and there are from Antarctica only 500 numbers with a larger tkw than 2.5kg.
Hence a few single tons from whole Antarctica
And anyway, to bring 1000 gallons of gasoline to the Pole costs as much to get a ton of ordinary chondrites from NWA delivered to the doorstep of the institute.

So you see, of what small quantities we're talking at all. Seen the weights and the volume of money.

Look the overall expenses for one single Antarctic meteorite season would easily have bought all that above listed desert completely.
And if one would be so kind to spend another years expenses, with that money one could install in each and every Sahara country an university meteorite department equipped with a microprobe and pay there two meteoricists for the next 50 years.

Money, profit motifs, that is a bugaboo of not so knowledgable people.
Compared to quite any other university research or museums collecting activities, we're speaking with meteorites about peanuts.
Neither any "black market" does exists, simply due to the lack of mass.

Those articles always suggest, that the private collectors would buy up all new finds before the scientists could do that.
Please Shawn - after Calcalong was forgotten, which two meteorites angered the scientists most? The two DaG-Moons.
Now see Shawn - still today - after so long times and these two rocks were everything else than of the size of a mountain,
you can still buy them without problems, and at a rate 200, 300 times lower than 15 years ago.

Look, Shawn, what was the most devastating article before that one now? It was, when Dr.Smith, the highest meteorite boss of the Commonwealth cried in BBC, that science wouldn't be able to compete with private collecting. Nja well, I would cry too if I would have bought the Ivuna main mass, because it was simply the most expensive meteorite specimen of the World of these years around. But I'd rather would have said: Girl, what are you crying, you could have bought so much fine desert instead.

Back to that NYT article - what is the name of that "journalist". Mr.Broad simply only would have had to go to the Natural History Museum in New York and if he have had a little talk with the meteorite curator there, Denton Ebel, he would have learned not only, that meteorite dealing and trade is as old as meteoritics, but also, that the main load of meteorites in the NY collection and the great stones and irons, the collection was founded with,
were simply purchased from a big meteorite dealer: Henry Augustus Ward. Half of his private collection - the other half plus before some more was purchased from the Field museum, which was founded hence also solely with purchased material. That Fields, where the curators seem to have a problem to purchase desert meteorites, because they think, meteorite dealing would be a new phenomenon and that in former times their meteorites had fallen from the sky directly into their stock. And Ebel would have him perhaps too, that for their crown jewel, the fat Cape York, they had paid a million USD to the owner.

These articles, that yelling, it comes always from single persons, mostly standing outside of meteorites. These are single opinions.
In fact the overwhelming majority of scientists, private collectors, hunters and dealers - they are all very content, how things are going with meteorites, because such paradisiac times never existed before.

Look Shawn, now that Dr. DiMartino. He is no meteoricists. He hasn't directly clues about that field, he is an astronomer.
And he is silly. If you look in the Bulletins, there you find, that he once purchased an eucrite in Algeria (and the Algerians made a much larger drama than the Egyptians) and there isn't listed his institute as holder of the stone, but he as private person.

Now back.
Look market, black market. These articles and those who are fanning the flames, they always try to raise the impression,
that millions of people after quitting time would go out and would dig up millions of meteorites, selling them for billions of dollars.

They want to create a problem, where no problem is at all.
(Why they are doing that? I can imagine).

And that is the dangerous thing. Laws are made by politicians and administration. They read that bullshit in NYC, New Scientist, BBC..
and think - uuuuh - there seems to be an urgent problem, we have to do something!

Of course - all people occupied with meteorites know, that this is a titanic humbug - but they can't know it.

Profit. Shawn, I never met a person, who became wealthy during the last 10 years in dealing with meteorites.
The times are long over and gone. Look today, we all, from the ominous goatherd up to the collectors who are financing that all,
we made it possible that any provincial university or even college today can make serial examinations on such rare classes like mentioned above and that on more different samples, as they would get from the Antarctic leaning sytem, cause there weren't found so many.

Of course Shawn, here and there might be curators moaning about having no budgets, but that's their job, to get things straight.
Because most institutes have their budget in best order.
And I always recommend, just browse a little bit around and check the budgets not only of meteorite institutes, but for other research projects and check the purchase budgets of other, also small museums, galleries and collections.
And check the prices of the specimens on the major arts fairs.
You will find out, that the annual World meteoritic turnover doesn't exceed the prices of one or two or high-end artifacts or pieces of art.

So that debate is vain.


More important are to answer the questions. If one would accede to the wishes of these yellers and if one would introduce such laws, what would that bring for an improvement for these yellers?

Where would be the advantage?
Would their budgets grow then?
Would be meteorite then become cheaper?
Would then more meteorites found on Earth?
What would that mean for the recovery of the rare and scientifically especially interesting types?
Would then end more material in the labs and national collections?
Would you have then still that influx of material for free due to the classification process system?

THOSE are the questions to be answered, before one thinks about banning all commerce.

And partially they are already answered. In Australia. In Oman. In Libya. In South Africa. In Algeria.


Shawn - one can like it or not - it has proved that there is simply and by far no such economic and efficient way for meteoritics to get the objects for their research - than to buy them from the professional private specialists.

Best!
Martin









         


-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. April 2011 08:49
An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: [meteorite-list] NYT story

Hello Agee and Listers,

Agee thank you for sharing your side of your story. I have to say I have read the NYT again and WOW. But again the title says it all.....Black-Market Trinkets From Space. The bias started off right in the title and the writer did a good job with getting readership, but in a bad way. I am not much of a person to keep up with NYT but I have to say he sure did know how to write a title.

At first I didn't notice it but then the word Trinkets popped. I am confused how the writer is demoting meteorite to mere trinkets that you get at a carnival or some quarter machine. Do people sell Trinkets on the BLACK MARKET.... No they sell big guns, and other expensive multi billion dollar items. It just shows that the NYT thinks this topic is a joke and all they need and want ratings. Black Market in any title will make people stop and take a look at the article.

But I do have to say out of this negative reporting it has promoted an awareness about meteorites and how important they are for science and history. As days pass and I learn more about new discoveries or old ones from historic books, I learn more about who we are as humans and how important these rocks are to us. I am fascinated by the rich stories and the new discoveries that can piece together it started.

However, this isn't the first time this has happened where people ride off each other for profit. Its been done from the first meteorite fall and will continue to do so because of the value that is put forth on meteorites and how they play a key role in understanding the universe. I just hope that science and collectors keep working together and making history happen as apposed to some other countries that have law on meteorite.
 
Shawn Alan
IMCA 1633
eBaystore
http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html


[meteorite-list] NYT storyCarl Agee agee at unm.edu
Tue Apr 5 11:28:10 EDT 2011
Received on Wed 06 Apr 2011 07:37:17 AM PDT