[meteorite-list] ASU suspends public meteorite identification program

From: dean bessey <deanbessey_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 16:57:23 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <451375.63407.qm_at_web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

As somebody who started a fee based classification service with Ray at Bathurst Observatory I can shed a little light on what it would actually take to get quick classifications done.
Most (Many anyway) list members know that I started a classification service several years ago with Ray. Its not shut down so technically I am still running it but we are no longer taking new classifications.
The delay is getting microprobe results. We were promised a 8 week turnaround when we started with the microprobe results and in return we would work with the university to build up a meteorite collection.
We had a couple committed scientists on board who genuinely love meteorites and the plan was to work together.
Two things went against us. Budget cutbacks was the main one. But also the mining industry started needing more microprobe analysis of their own. Unlike meteorite people on a budget the mining industry is paying millions of dollars a day for mining equipment. Australia has avoided the worldwide recession and its all on the back of the mining industry. A few extra thousand dollars for quick microprobe results is a lot less to the mining company than paying for idle equipment sitting around waiting for microprobe results.
The mining companies are paying around $350-$400 for their microprobe results (And then they have their own analysis people adding more to their cost).
How does this affect my classification service? Well, since we are not paying $400 a day we keep getting our results bumped to the back of the line until microprobe time is available. A crash in mineral prices and a worldwide recession might free up microprobe time for us.
Becides the microprobe results you need somebody capable of reading the results to make a classification (In my case thats my partner Ray).
He obviously wants to be paid for that half hour or an hour part of the work, I want some profit to and there is other minor costs like postage costs, bank (Paypal in particular with meetorite classifications) fees, computer equipment, cost of making a thin section etc.
So to sum things up for around $500 to $600 each (I havent bothered working on exact costs as nobody will pay that anyway) I have the ability to start a meteorite classification service and have a very fast several week turnaround time.
Somebody with access to equipment in Europe or the USA where the mining industry is not hogging all of the equipment may or may not be able to beat this. I dont know but I doubt it would be a lot less unless it is with help from some scientist who is undercharging for work because of an interest in meteorites.
Scientists doing classifications for free obviously get a type specimen and recognition that comes with classifying a new witnessed fall and this has value in itself reducing the cost below $500.
But its because most meteorite people (Myself included) wont pay $600 to get a quick classification that we have to wait years to get classification results on NWAs. For me this is very frustrating and for the most part I dont even bother trying to classify stuff anymore. Nobody is really to blame. This is just what it costs to get stuff done and the meteorite world dont live in a vacuum and quarter million dollar microprobe machines are used for lots of things other than classifying meteorites (And at $400 a pop and with government funding cutbacks a lot of them is increasingly being used to do work for mining companies). We are lucky that there are scientists who love meteorites enough to get classification results anyway. And its not a one way street as they get benefit to. But a for profit meteorite classification service that just runs strictly on its own economics is not a viable business plan (Not until enough people are willing to pay $600 each
 to make it worthwhile).
Somebody should lobby government and try to secure a couple million dollar grant to study meteorites. You can bet there would be plenty of qualified scientists willing to work full time on meteorite studies. It would certainly increase meteorite knowledge with all of the NWAs floating around. You could make a serious arguement that it would help more than all the millions spent on the Antarctic meteorite program (Although of course everybody wont agree on that and in reality there should be a plan for both places) but you would get a lot more material to work with in NWA.
But NWAs are running out now and the opportunity to set this up has mostly been lost now anyway.
In the meantime I am waiting for microprobe slots to get the results of the classifications my own classification service has submitted thats been running over two years now (But I am promised that it will get done soon).
Sincerely
DEAN
 




















--- On Wed, 8/9/10, Richard Kowalski <damoclid at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Richard Kowalski <damoclid at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ASU suspends public meteorite identification program
> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Received: Wednesday, 8 September, 2010, 1:37 PM
> Eric,
>
> I'm not sure if you've "run the numbers" on what such a
> service would cost, but lets talk a few numbers, that I
> admit are essentially pulled out of thin air.
>
> Salary for a full time researcher, with no benefits, $35000
> per year (and that's on the low side)
> Lab, minimum cost of $1000 per month, just for the space,
> with no equipment.
> Lab costs, minimum of $100 per hour.
> Lab equipment, I won't even make a guess at this, but
> minimum, would be many 10s of thousands of dollars for a
> properly equipped lab.
>
>
> So, say the researcher can spend 5 full hours each day
> actually examining & studying the specimens. The rest of
> the day is spent doing other related tasks. That means 25
> hours per week or 1250 hours per year (only two weeks
> vacation per year)
>
> Using the three numbers I cite $35,000 + $12,000 + 125,000
> means that at a minimum a facility would need to charge at
> least $137.60 per hour just to break even on these costs. Of
> course many institutions charge overhead of as much as 50%
> so now that hourly cost is double.
>
> If you provide the researcher with any benefits at all and
> you have to equip the lab with even a high quality
> polarizing microscope, your hourly costs go up in proportion
> to how much equipment is in the lab and how rapidly those
> costs can be depreciated. Need another employee that deals
> with administration? Well your hourly fees have to go up
> again.
>
> Agreed that if you offer a service that at has a minimum
> fee of $300 just to open the package and let you know you
> have a meteor-wrong, most of these submissions will vanish.
> However, how many people would be willing to spend the $300
> base fee to be told by an expert, in effect "certify" the
> rock they know is a meteorite in fact a meteorite? How many
> of those would then pay the many hundred or thousands of
> dollars more for this commercial company to classify the
> meteorite? Few to none I suspect.
>
> As I said I'm pulling these numbers out of thin air, but
> I'd guess that those of you getting meteorites classified,
> if you are paying under several hundred dollars per hour in
> fees to get it done, are getting an incredible bargain. This
> is often because the costs are passed on to the taxpayer
> that funds your institution of choice.
>
> I doubt any of the meteoriticists doing this at an
> institution have figured out a per hour or per
> classification cost, but my guess is that my estimate is
> well below actual costs.
>
> --
> Richard Kowalski
> Full Moon Photography
> IMCA #1081
>
>
> --- On Wed, 9/8/10, Meteorites USA <eric at meteoritesusa.com>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Meteorites USA <eric at meteoritesusa.com>
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ASU suspends public
> meteorite identification program
> > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 11:40 AM
> > I would think a "paid" meteorite
> > identification service might alleviate some of the
> burden of
> > abuse. This would have a screening effect on those
> that
> > would normally be adamant that their Earth rock is a
> > meteorite even in the presence of evidence it's not.
> People
> > that won't take no for an answer probably wouldn't
> > spend money to have it examined professionally in the
> first
> > place. Supplement your time with a small fee. This
> will weed
> > out those in denial.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> >
> > On 9/8/2010 11:26 AM, Adam Hupe wrote:
> > > Yes, it was just a matter of time. You can
> only
> > tie up your resources looking
> > > at so many meteorite wrongs before it interferes
> with
> > budget and time
> > > management. I no longer look at
> > solicited/suspected meteorites from unknown
> > > parties for the same reasons. Most think their
> finds
> > are going to make them the
> > > latest millionaires and do not want to hear the
> > truth. Dreams are free unless
> > > you are the one characterizing the object. Some
> get
> > very angry when you tell
> > > them what they have is not a meteorite and they
> are
> > not that easy to find
> > > regardless of what they saw on TV or read on
> some
> > website. You can only be
> > > abused so many times before the process becomes
> less
> > enjoyable.
> > >
> > >
> > > Here is to finding real meteorites!
> > >
> > > Adam
> > > ______________________________________________
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>
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Received on Wed 08 Sep 2010 07:57:23 PM PDT