[meteorite-list] Pros at Work II

From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks <meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:37:39 -0500
Message-ID: <AANLkTinBvatr1bpjETYSkeHj70Ag=VO+N+RS_dP3iNFs_at_mail.gmail.com>

Hi Martin,

I did sound flip towards the effort they are making, and I should be
more appreciative that this kind of work is being done. It's not
cheap or easy to implement a scientific network to provide meaningful
data and finds. I genuinely wish the Australians the best of luck
with their efforts to record and recover these meteorites. I'm glad
somebody is out there doing it in some official or scientific
capacity. Perhaps if they make a huge success, like a new lunar or
martian, then they can expand and envigorate their efforts further.

What we see in the US is the best and worst of motivations surrounding
new falls. For the most part, I think the private hunters based in
the US conduct themselves with professionalism and their efforts are
fruitful for both science and the individual. There are exceptions,
but one cannot argue with results. For example, Ash Creek became
something of a circus, but the yield in stones was rewarding.
Everyone got enough Ash Creek to fulfill demand.

The scientists got their samples, the hunters scored numerous finds,
the landowners made money (and stones), local businesses profited from
the influx of "meteorite tourists/hunters", a dog made a find, hammer
collectors got something to cheer for, and despite the occasional
ruckus caused by overzealous hunters (or gun-toting landowners), the
strewnfield was accurately mapped, the finds were documented, and
science came out a winner without being compromised in any way by
private participation in the effort.

Look how many hunters, would-be hunters, and gawkers descended on Ash
Creek! Without the promise of keeping a find or being able to sell
some of a find (to profit or to help offset considerable expenses),
the available manpower would have been much lower, the yield of finds
would have been smaller, and many stones would be lost and buried to
rot.

Australia could have it's cake and eat it also. Their official effort
is to be supported, but they should also embrace responsible
participation by private parties who can expect to be compensated in
some way for their own expenses and efforts. In such a scenario, the
official program could recruit additional private manpower, to
increase the boots on the ground and the number of finds. Everyone
could win and these constricting restrictions (say that 10 times
fast!) are not necessary.

Martin, as you have eloquently explained numerous times in the past,
the Australian model of meteorite laws is counter-productive in all
ways. The Australians have a giant landmass to cover and they should
enlist all the good help they can get.

Best regards,

MikeG

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone & Ironworks Meteorites

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On 11/12/10, Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de> wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> I don't know, and actually it's not our cup of tea.
> Science costs. And cheaper than Antarctica it is most probably anyway.
> I'm only a layman, but at least I'm sponsoring the Australian network with
> the taxes on our meteorite sales.
> (Although I'm not fully convinced yet that Australia is a part of EU)
>
> The equipment and the vehicles of the searching team are very impressing.
> Makes me only a little aches and pains, if I remember that the time-honored
> European fireball network has severe difficulties to scrape together the
> 6000$, (the stations themselves are maintained by voluntary amateurs), which
> are the yearly costs to run it, since the German Space Agency has quit the
> financing.
>
> What I don't fully understand yet,
> is, that they caught 7 meteorite droppers, that they say, that they have an
> accuracy in calculating the strewnfield of about a square mile and that they
> cover a typically perfect search area, where meteorites are much more easier
> to be found, than on the terrain the other camera networks cover,
>
> but that they didn't went out to search for all these 7 falls (but only 2
> times? If I read the page correctly?)
> and always only with maximum 8 people.
>
> The European fireball network uses a different method.
> I mean Mike, you know it by your own, Mifflin, Buzzard Coulee, Whetstone,
> Ash Creek, Park Forest - how many people and what for a manpower you need,
> to recover really fair amounts of a new fall (or a new fall at all).
>
> In Europe, to generate the manpower and manhours necessary, and simply
> because there are no funds,
> the network involves amateurs and private hunters in searching for possible
> new falls.
> Remember the greatest success, Neuschwanstein - there everyone, who wanted
> to search, was instructed with the map of the calculated strewnfield, and
> the 3 stones were only found, because dozens of people searched based on the
> data for 3 years. Also the main mass wouldn't have been recovered, if not an
> amateur could have made new calculations based on the data of the network.
>
> Also professional private hunters are allowed to have access to the data,
> and used them for Maribo e.g.
> LaPice was also solely a recovery of private hunters.
>
> And if you have in mind, Mike, Moss, Vilalbeto and so on - how small the
> tkws would be, if not private professionals and amateurs would have spent
> thousands of hours in the field!
>
> (Of course, that is and was all only possible, because we in Europe don't
> make such a drama about the legal restrictions like the Aussies do -
> meteorites are perhaps somewhat more important to us here than there).
>
> Don't know, whether I should, but perhaps... to give some numbers. A friend
> of mine is an excellent desert hunter. His average find rate over the years,
> when he was going alone, was 60kgs of new meteorites PER trip (of course
> with all find data) - and the complete costs per trip, hence travel,
> equipment etc. are always around 4,000$.
>
> So you see,
> now only theoretically and in noooo way emotionally, and keeping in mind,
> that the privateers have naturally a different perspective, a more
> results-oriented one, (more disclaimers necessary?) but...
>
> if one daffs possible ideological obstacles aside and if one thinks more
> practically, find-oriented, and applies the efficient method of involving
> trained expert hunters and amateurs,
>
> then the Australian desert fireball network has a HUUUUUUUUUGE potential!!
>
> But, their beer, as we say here.
> And don't forget, they seem to be still in the phase of building up that
> network.
> Let's see what the following years will bring.
> Rome wasn't built in one day.
>
> (Off now, have to generate more tax money,
> that they can go more often out to hunt their droppers :-)
> Martin
>
>
>
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Galactic Stone & Ironworks [mailto:meteoritemike at gmail.com]
> Gesendet: Freitag, 12. November 2010 14:11
> An: Martin Altmann
> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Pros at Work II
>
> Well, at least nobody can spoil their little party.
>
> It reminds me of a rich kid who lives down the block, whose parents
> threw him an big extravagant birthday bash - but none of the poor kids
> in the neighborhood were invited. So we got hang around outside in
> the street and hear the fun without participating in it. We could
> watch the guests arrive, watch the clowns arrive, watch the petting
> zoo arrive, but we couldn't participate.
>
> And I remember thinking to myself - F that kid and his family. LOL
>
> Best regards,
>
> MikeG
>
>
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Received on Fri 12 Nov 2010 11:37:39 AM PST