[meteorite-list] 5 reasons to record meteorite coordinates
From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 00:49:09 +0100 Message-ID: <00c601cac23e$a6190960$07b22959_at_name86d88d87e2> Carl, recording coordinates is absolute standard. It's very important information, for various reasons, which were explained here on the list. Debate is. There is a group of meteorites, which comes without coordinates, those from Sahara. Called NWA. And we saw here in the discussion some diametral opinions about them. Some say, they shouldn't be picked up anymore, because of the missing coordinates, others say they are scientifically much to valuable to leave them there. And two other points we discussed. Some say, that it would be also a problem in the US-desert, that people are collecting meteorites without taking coordinates. There btw. I'm curious, how many people at all are going to search there for meteorites? Any estimates? I would think, that is such a weird spare time activity, that not directly many would go out to hunt for meteorites. I'd suppose people would look for things, which commonly are more known - artefacts, gold, fossils, rocks. I mean - who at all, know what a meteorite is? And how to recognize a meteorite. If you don't know, what you're looking for, it's somewhat difficult to find somthing Also I think, that meteorite hunting is somewhat frustrating occupation for normal people, cause they are so rare. I'd suppose, here on the list are already present the best U.S.-hunters. Very responsible people. And else maybe some collectors, who spend a few days a year there. If I read some emails here, I get the impression, that the U.S.-deserts would be populated each day by hundreds, if not thousands of meteorite hunters. Is that so? Or do we see a problem, where no problem exists? And second question was, do laws forbidding any meteorite hunt help, that finds get coordinates. I suppose. No. The independently data published by scientists show, that virtually nobody else is and was finding meteorites than private people. Only in Antarctica there are searchs going on and a few weeks a year a small grouplet of scientists in Oman. So if laws will forbid any hunt, there will be no meteorites anymore. This is a method to avoid finds without coordinates, because it avoids, that meteorites are found. Not so helpful - meteorite science is called meteorite science - because they do research on meteorites. And the other problem is - if there would exist people ignoring the laws and continuing hunting - the danger is real, that they would obscure the find places and would tend to declare, that the meteorites were found elsewhere, where it is still legal. So I think it would even worsen the situation. Australia is an example, aside the prohibitive export laws there exist local laws, which don't allow ownership by the finders. Australia was a grand and traditional meteorite nation. A whole continent and full of desert. With all the laws, the effect was, that suddenly no meteorites were found anymore. Less than 1 new find per year. One could conjecture, that such a miserable and for such a historically glorious meteorite nation absolutely ignoble find rate can't be possible. And that more meteorites were found the last 10 years than only 7. But because of the laws - we never will get to know that. Cause people might have not declared their finds, cause they wouldn't be allowed to keep some material. So all in all a horrible loss, not only of coordinates, but of new meteorites and possible and probable new meteorites. Or imagine the Omani petition, that MetSoc should only recognize and publish still the finds of the Suisse team. If that would happen, it would be a catastrophe. Best, Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von cdtucson at cox.net Gesendet: Freitag, 12. M?rz 2010 23:07 An: Greg Stanley; meteoritelist Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] 5 reasons to record meteorite coordinates Greg, Sorry but I guess I wasn't clear with my point. I certainly agree 100% that hunters have a lot to gain by publishing co-ord information. And The late great O Richard Norton did a great job in everything he published. But. My question was ; what does Science of the future care about this? After all it is the object itself that provides the Science, not where it was found. Just like anything of value, There is always a story. We have all heard it. "My grandfather saw this fall through his roof." But the important thing is the object itself. because not all stories are true. The truth is that for a million different reasons people embellish their stories. People see UFO's etc... Are they looking for their 15 minutes? Yes, we have seen acts of generosity by folks like Rob Matson offering up co-ords from fireballs but, much of the time people want to keep their found treasures a secret. Go figure! Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax ---- Greg Stanley <stanleygregr at hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Who, Where, When, what and Why do you think Scientists want this information????? > > Scientists who want to understand strewn fields > In publications > Books - "Field Guide to meteorites" > > > > Who holds this information? > > Met list > Anyone who wants to compile the information and perhaps write an article or paper > > > > Where is this information to be found and or published? > > Books and publications > > > > > When do you put it there? > > Anytime > > > > What are they going to do with this vital information? > > Answered this > > > > Why would you put it there? > > Answered this > > > > Name the Scientists that care about this? Names please? > > Someone else can do this > > > The point is that I am sure it does not hurt to gather this information but then what? > Make a map and keep records > > > Nowadays, It seems to me the only people who give a rat's *ss about this is Jason and a few other hunters > > Carl: > > Here's why I do it (one reason) > > I found a real nice meteorite on a dry lake - had a nice fusion crust (not common on dry lakes)? anyway, it was chipped and I looked and looked and looked for fragments.? Found a few more meteorites, but from different stones.? So I took the coordinates and a picture (as I always do).? Then two years later I went back to the same location (because I had the coordinates) and looked and I found two fragments, and get this, one fit onto the fusion crusted piece I found two years earlier. COOL !.? But I had checked the same area before a year earlier... so the point is new meteorites are exposed on dry lakes all the time in the same spots... so you have to look in these areas over and over. > > It is very important to me to mark and take a picture of every meteorite I find. > > > > Greg S. > > > > > > > . > > Obviously so, they can go back and find more material but please don't confuse this with what real Science has to do with it or even cares about. > > Jason says he keeps records of all of his finds. I too keep records and I think most people do as well. But until there is some data base or other official place for it, this information along with a couple of bucks won't buy much more than a cup of coffee. Sorry. True story. > > Thanks Carl > > > > -- > > Carl or Debbie Esparza > > Meteoritemax > > > > > > ---- Mark Bowling wrote: > >> To get back to the subject of land in the American West, if we wait for centuries or even a few decades before scientifically hunting an area, we lose meteorites because of urban development. That isn't happening in NWA for the most part, but it is here. Look at Gold Basin. There is a lot of remaining material, but soon it will be a settlement which will obliterate and destroy much of the remaining stones. And that is happening all over the West. Not to mention surfaces that are being destroyed by natural processes (every year rivers and washes like the Santa Cruz in Southern Az change channels and wash away thousands if not millions of cubic yards of land). I agree 100% that hunters should collect data for each and every find made, but we shouldn't restrict meteorite hunting because of a few bad collectors. What will happen is that good hunters will stop hunting and unscrupulous hunters will continue. Since they aren't enforcing basic > >> laws on public lands, only those with a conscience and a good reputation will comply and stop. > >> > >> Why not create a system which encourages good hunting techniques? I think if we have such a system, a new person who stumbles into the hobby would pick up good habits from the start. If people realize that if they donate a certain percentage of a new find, that they could become published and acknowledged, they would choose to do that. If they know recording the data that scientist want, they would do it to help out. It is a source of pride to feel that you are helping in a greater cause. But if it's a choice of criminalizing meteorite hunting (for varied reasons - to stop data loss or "protect the land"), or leaving it the way it currently is, then I hope no changes are made. The past demonstrates (though Martin's good analysis) that the former will only harm the field of meteoritics. > >> > >> Regarding regulations, anything more complicated than selling a meteorite license (for a nominal fee, with the expectation that a certain percentage of finds will be donated to list of institutions) will be unenforceable and unmanageable (and too expensive). At some point you have to trust people to do the right thing and let their peers determine if they are worth doing business with. If an agent catches someone without a license (like the state and feds already catch poachers, dumpers, ATVers in Wilderness areas, etc.), then an appropriate fine is applied (with maybe a written warning for the first incident to allow folks to become educated with the system). Anything more complicated won't work and a good alternative is to leave it as it is as half a loaf is better than a hundred paved over loaves. > >> > >> Mark B. > >> Vail, AZ > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Jason Utas meteoritekid at gmail.com > >> > >> Most NWA's are very old; they would not suffer if they were left there > >> for even centuries. > >> If we left them until the time when we could go there and properly > >> document them, they would not suffer. > >> You say that it is worth it to pick them up *now* so that we get the > >> extraterrestrial data and lose the terrestrial data. > >> I think that it would be better to wait the extra few decades so that > >> we might get both sets of data. > >> You have yet to explain why you think that it is worth it to pick them > >> up now as opposed to later in exchange for the loss of all > >> terrestrial/entry data. > >> ______________________________________________ > >> Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > ______________________________________________ > > Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/210850553/direct/01/ ______________________________________________ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-listReceived on Fri 12 Mar 2010 06:49:09 PM PST |
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