[meteorite-list] I'm a Toys Are Us KId?

From: Michael Blood <mlblood_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 17:53:15 -0800
Message-ID: <C7BD8D0B.C299%mlblood_at_cox.net>

Disagreement is no reason to call someone names or
Imply they are crazy or criminal.
        Check the list rules.
        Sincerely, Michael


On 3/10/10 1:46 AM, "bill kies" <parkforestmet at hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> I think brevity is one of the highest forms of expression. The simple equation
> that explains much is of great value.
>
> I agree that civil disobedience is the responsibility of every good citizen.
>
>
> "I have never sold or traded a find, and never will. They will all windup in
> an institution."
>
> I hope so but I doubt this will happen. Odds are that with your attitude
> you'll end up in an institution first. It's fun to be idealistic... I'm afraid
> you're going to be the meteorite kid for a long, long time.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 23:31:47 -0800
>> From: meteoritekid at gmail.com
>> To: geeg48 at msn.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is a sad day.....
>>
>> Greg, All,
>>
>>> These laws that restrict what can be taken off of BLM land, etc.....where do
>>> they come from? Where do these laws come from? Who creates these laws?
>>
>> What's your point? This wasn't addressed in your email or my reply,
>> so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
>> We are, of course, talking about the government, but if you're going
>> to choose this as your example of an unnecessary or "wrong" law,
>> perhaps you should challenge the laws that prohibit the collection of
>> vertebrate fossils or indian remains by amateurs, as well. They
>> amount to the same thing - but are more readily enforced.
>>
>>> Also, I'd like to address the following in your recent post. Speaking of
>>> meteorites, you wrote, "....it wouldn't stop anyone from hunting for them;
>>> it's easy enough to say that you're looking for *anything* else...and if
>>> they ask you what the brown rock that you've found is, do you really expect
>>> the BLM officer to know what a meteorite looks like?
>>>
>>> In other words, *break the law*. Is that about right? Whatever works, huh.
>>
>> Hardly. Have you ever jay-walked? Did you ever have a sip of beer
>> before turning 21 (or 18, depending on the era).
>> I know that we do a better job of documenting our finds than most
>> people out there, and a trained scientist probably wouldn't do better
>> -- at least, I don't see what else they could do in terms of
>> documenting a find.
>> The thing is -- I understand why those laws are in place, and while I
>> suppose we may technically be breaking them, if they are indeed
>> official laws, the simple fact of the matter is this: I have never
>> sold or traded a find away, and never will. I have also fully
>> documented every find - coordinates, labels, we have trip logs for
>> each trip, in situ photos without gps, with gps, all photos
>> laboriously annotated by Peter, and the records are on two computers,
>> backed up on my external hard-drive, and are in paper form as well.
>> When I die, unless I have children and they love these things as much
>> as I do, our collection will likely go to the Smithsonian, with
>> certain provisions that none of the samples be cut beyond 10% or some
>> such thing.
>> That or some other institution.
>>
>> I understand why laws against the collecting of vertebrate fossils are
>> in place, and I wouldn't try to excavate any were I to come across
>> them, for fear of damaging them and losing valuable scientific
>> information.
>> But I know damn well how to document meteorites, and we do a good job
>> of it - as well as can be done.
>>
>> So when you tell me that I'm breaking a law...kind of, I suppose. I
>> have never sold or traded a find, and never will. They will all wind
>> up in an institution. They are all very well documented, and, to be
>> frank, given the level of documentation that we have, it would be very
>> hard to confuse a single one of our finds with another.
>> So while you may claim that I may be *technically* breaking the law in
>> taking them, but I'll be damned if you even try to say that I'm
>> breaking the spirit of the law.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 22:43:03 -0800
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is a sad day.....
>>>> From: meteoritekid at gmail.com
>>>> To: geeg48 at msn.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>
>>>> Greg, Ron, Chris, All,
>>>>
>>>> And some here might disagree with you about your point of view;
>>>> "something that [you]'ve observed over the past few years" isn't fact,
>>>> it's opinion, and if you want to start a debate about how large
>>>> governments are bad, I think you should take it elsewhere - and
>>>> perhaps stop stating your point of view as though it was fact.
>>>>
>>>> With regards to that sort of a decision about meteorites - nothing's
>>>> changed recently, and even if it did or had, it wouldn't stop anyone
>>>> from hunting for them; it's easy enough to say that you're looking for
>>>> *anything* else...and if they ask you what the brown rock that you've
>>>> found is, do you really expect the BLM officer to know what a
>>>> meteorite looks like?
>>>> This whole topic is inane - all of the meteorites that we've found on
>>>> public land belong to the government, and they've yet to start
>>>> claiming them, with few exceptions.
>>>> Be happy with that, and if that changes, let me know.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I agree with Ron Hartman. Yes, I believe that responsible
>>>> hunters with cameras and GPS' should be allowed to hunt. But the data
>>>> that's being lost by people who don't care to carefully record each
>>>> chip...it's just not scientific. There's a reason archaeologists grid
>>>> their sites meticulously in an attempt to find and use every iota of
>>>> information that they might attain from their field work: it's because
>>>> once they've been there and gone through it, that information is
>>>> either found and recorded, or it's lost to science forever.
>>>>
>>>> It's at least partly why native american remains and vertebrate
>>>> fossils are on the prohibited list - most of the people looking to
>>>> recover them simply don't record the scientific information necessary
>>>> to place them in a useful scientific frame, and that's recognized by
>>>> the scientific community and by politicians (I know, there are other
>>>> political reasons why we can't pick up indian relics, but at least
>>>> take vertebrate fossils into account).
>>>>
>>>> Unless you advocate the legality of collecting all such materials in a
>>>> commercial fashion, I really don't see how you can ask for meteorites
>>>> in particular. It just seems like a political self-interest argument
>>>> that you're only putting forth because *you* want the right to do what
>>>> *you* want, regardless of what's better for science.
>>>>
>>>> I'm seeing a lot of loss.
>>>>
>>>> Until a few years ago, every single fragment from every single lakebed
>>>> in California was carefully documented, recorded, and submitted. It's
>>>> the only reason that we were able to map complex strewn-fields and
>>>> fragmentation fields on many lakebeds, and we made sure to grid
>>>> several lakes in such a way as to find nearly two-hundred stones on
>>>> lakebeds that were "searched out." Stones ranging from about a pound
>>>> down to half a gram.
>>>> This isn't happening universally anymore.
>>>>
>>>> Which isn't to say that many people aren't doing spectacular jobs of
>>>> documenting their finds, but perhaps there should be some sort of
>>>> qualifying criteria for the ability to pick up these scientific
>>>> treasures.
>>>>
>>>> On our last hunting trip, amongst other things, we recovered a single
>>>> twelve-fragment stone from a California lakebed. The initial seven
>>>> fragments were relatively easy to find; we spent an additional four
>>>> hours crawling over the area, which resulted in the finding of five
>>>> more fragments, three of which weighed about 0.2-0.1 grams, one of
>>>> which was nearly sixty feet away.
>>>> I don't know if we found all of them, but I know for a fact that if I
>>>> did miss any, they were in that 0.1 to 0.2 gram size-range, and, given
>>>> the fact that daylight was fading, I couldn't have done better. We'll
>>>> be returning there anyways, to "clean up." The total weight of all of
>>>> the fragments was something like fifteen grams.
>>>>
>>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/MeteoriteKid/PersonalFinds#5426012774669234562
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps we shouldn't have photographed every find, or GPS'd them all,
>>>> or measured the distances between each so that we would be able to
>>>> draw a map of the field later.
>>>>
>>>> But we did, and now that information will be available to science
>>>> forever, and it will not be lost. Was it worth four hours of our
>>>> lives to take care of that? Four hours that we could have spent
>>>> hunting elsewhere - or perhaps getting food?
>>>> Perhaps, perhaps not, but that information is now safe.
>>>> And many hunters nowadays don't put forth the effort. Some do. Many do not.
>>>> It's why, while we do have information regarding the Franconia, Gold
>>>> Basin, and Ash Creek strewnfields, we do not have good maps of any of
>>>> these, aside from Jim Kriegh's original map of Gold Basin, which is
>>>> now still useful but relatively obsolete.
>>>>
>>>> You tell me what's better: the right for irresponsible hunters to lose
>>>> information, or the protection of this irreplaceable scientific
>>>> information. The rocks aren't going anywhere. Even if it takes a
>>>> century for the appropriate scientific programs to come about that
>>>> will recover them, they won't age much in that time, if at all.
>>>>
>>>> The age of profiteering off of dinosaur fossils by people like Edward
>>>> Cope and Othniel Marsh undoubtedly uncovered a vast amount of
>>>> information and fossils - to quote Wikipedia, as unreliable as it is,
>>>> "Unfortunately, many valuable dinosaur specimens were damaged or
>>>> destroyed due to the pair's rough methods: for example, their diggers
>>>> often used dynamite to unearth bones (a method modern paleontologists
>>>> would find appalling). Despite their unrefined methods, the
>>>> contributions of Cope and Marsh to paleontology were vast: Marsh
>>>> unearthed 86 new species of dinosaur and Cope discovered 56, a total
>>>> of 142 new species."
>>>>
>>>> This, in my mind, is what many people are doing today in the field of
>>>> meteorites. Yes, many meteorites are being recovered, but look around
>>>> you at the staggering scientific losses that are occurring
>>>> simultaneously...
>>>>
>>>> And Chris, too, is right. The existence of an un-enforced law that
>>>> "protects" meteorites in the United States is likely the sole reason
>>>> that we don't have more prohibitive and widely enforced laws. Be
>>>> happy with the BLM website, and the fact that they likely couldn't
>>>> enforce the law even if they exhibited a wish to (and they haven't, by
>>>> and large).
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 8:59 PM, GREG LINDH wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason,
>>>>>
>>>>> Just stating an observation about something that I've observed over the
>>>>> past few years. My statement wasn't just about our current administration.
>>>>> The statement was a generalization about government. I stand by what I
>>>>> said. The meteorite thing is just one example of the intrusion of
>>>>> government into the lives of people. The only reason it is bothering the
>>>>> members here is that it affects them directly. I don't see any reason that
>>>>> people shouldn't be able to hunt for meteorites on any land, except Indian
>>>>> land or private property (without permission). All the restrictions have
>>>>> *never* made sense to me. My post's subject is directly attached to the
>>>>> subject of meteorites. Bottom line: it is the unwarranted intrusion of
>>>>> government that upset Ruben. No? If this is indeed a new ruling that
>>>>> eliminates meteorite hunting, then my topic seems quite relevant.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Greg Lindh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 20:36:04 -0800
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is a sad day.....
>>>>>> From: meteoritekid at gmail.com
>>>>>> To: geeg48 at msn.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Really, Greg?
>>>>>> Politics?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 8:17 PM, GREG LINDH wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Ruben,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Everyone should take this to heart....the bigger the government, the
>>>>>>> smaller the citizen. Our government is getting quite big, no?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Greg Lindh
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 18:51:50 -0700
>>>>>>>> From: mrmeteorite at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> To: damoclid at yahoo.com
>>>>>>>> CC: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It is a sad day.....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Richard and all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is NOT just for Oregon and Washington (Hell, who is hunting
>>>>>>>> meteorites there anyway?)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John Blennart has been talking with government people who have assured
>>>>>>>> him. "All the old Forest Service and BLM web sites will be changed to
>>>>>>>> read the new rules for meteorites."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is REAL! John has been saying this was in the works for weeks now
>>>>>>>> - It seems that the recent interest in meteorites made them look into
>>>>>>>> doing this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rock On!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ruben Garcia
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net
>>>>>>>> Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/
>>>>>>>> Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u
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>>>>>>>
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Received on Wed 10 Mar 2010 08:53:15 PM PST