[meteorite-list] sadder day...what happened to ethics??

From: GREG LINDH <geeg48_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:28:52 -0700
Message-ID: <BLU125-W6D75400669B928869ECEFC9340_at_phx.gbl>

    Michael,
 
  My questions to Erik had to do with a "new law" forbidding any hunting of meteorites on government land. The questions from my post remain unanswered. How would *you* answer them? So far, your method of "answering" is by way of obfuscation. It would be preferable to have direct answers to those questions. The questions are easy and straight forward. It shouldn't be hard to answer them.
 
 
  Greg
 
 

----------------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 14:47:25 -0800
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] sadder day...what happened to ethics??
> From: mlblood at cox.net
> To: geeg48 at msn.com; erikfwebb at msn.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>
> We should leave government / BLM land to subsidized
> Cattle grazing, Giant Corporate coal mining and Oil
> Exploitation for obscene profits to world controlling
> corporations. We certainly shouldn't take meteorites.
> We should be ETHICAL and leave them to terrestrialize!
> Michael
>
>
> On 3/9/10 1:53 PM, "GREG LINDH" wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Erik,
>>
>>
>> You wrote, "It is one thing to do what is morally correct and abide by the
>> law, and it is one thing to submit anytime the government tells you not to do
>> something without questioning it."
>>
>> Not sure I understand that last sentence, Erik. It seems to be possibly
>> self-contradictory, but perhaps I just don't follow you. Do you think that
>> one should obey the law, even if one doesn't agree with it?
>>
>> Let's say that Ruben's fear turns out to be true. Let's say that a new law
>> is passed that makes it illegal to hunt for meteorites on *any government
>> land....period....no exceptions*. Let's say that one completely disagrees
>> with this new law. Should one obey the law or just ignore it?
>>
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>>> From: erikfwebb at msn.com
>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:52:38 -0700
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It's now an even sadder day...what happened to
>>> ethics??
>>>
>>>
>>> Dennis,
>>> What is wrong with disregarding the law to "refind" a new classification on
>>> public land? Are you suggesting that I spend hundreds in gas/lodging/food to
>>> find meteorites to donate %100 of the material to a university or museum?
>>> With that little motivation, the number of new meteorites being found would
>>> drop to a number one could count on their left hand. It's already happened in
>>> Australia.
>>> I'd much rather donate a percentage of my material for classification and to
>>> be cataloged and then keep some.
>>>
>>> It is one thing to do what is morally correct and abide by the law, and it is
>>> one thing to submit anytime the government tells you not to do something
>>> without questioning it.
>>>
>>> [Erik]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>> From: apollocollector at q.com
>>>> To: cdtucson at cox.net
>>>> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 10:47:14 -0800
>>>> CC: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It's now an even sadder day...what happened to
>>>> ethics??
>>>>
>>>> Hello Carl,
>>>>
>>>> You ask some interesting questions. Yes, it sounds as if there are
>>>> many gray areas in the law...and those need to be cleared up. As for
>>>> your question about the LA Mars rocks, from the first time that I
>>>> heard the story, I wondered about the circumstances. While I believe
>>>> the story to be true, some might say that it was a convenient
>>>> fabrication to preserve personal gain. In any case, I guess that one
>>>> must draw a line at some point...and due to recent meteorite hunting
>>>> publicity, it appears that the time has now arrived. It may be that
>>>> previously documented finds can be "grandfathered" but going forward,
>>>> all laws must be obeyed. It is one thing to fail to know or
>>>> understand the law and another to knowingly disregard it...which is
>>>> the position of those who state that they will "refind" specimens in
>>>> the future.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Dennis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 9, 2010, at 10:21 AM, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dennis,
>>>>> I agree with you 100 %. If there were laws prohibiting the
>>>>> collection. However there is not. If you do read all the posts it
>>>>> has already been linked to sites that do define collections of
>>>>> meteorites and they only limit the amount allowed to 250 pounds per
>>>>> year without a special permit. But with that permit more in allowed
>>>>> legally. It merely states that these collections cannot be for
>>>>> commercial gain. This is the gray area. If you sell them then you
>>>>> are in violation. But what if your kids inherit them? What is the
>>>>> status then? This verbiage is as bad as many other laws drafted by
>>>>> the feds. I was once charged with selling duck feathers. They ended
>>>>> up dropping the charges as I proved the stuffed duck was legal
>>>>> because it was an antique
>>>>> ( grand fathered) but under current law it is in fact illegal to
>>>>> sell any migrating bird feathers. Thanks to the migrating bird act.
>>>>> Yes, you can hunt ducks and eat them but you must discard the
>>>>> feathers and may never sell them. How stupid is that?
>>>>> Again , it is very gray because these rocks are not meteorites until
>>>>> they are approved by metsoc. true story. An IMCA member is not
>>>>> allowed to state that they are selling meteorites unless they are
>>>>> approved by metsoc. And rightly so because they are not real without
>>>>> the metsoc designation. Or are they???
>>>>> We can also reduce this to the ridiculous by saying that all rocks
>>>>> came from space. Yes even Earth came from space. Or do we
>>>>> grandfather it in like the duck feathers? So, they are technically
>>>>> just rocks until that happens. By then if you try to put them back
>>>>> they can get you for littering. Can you imagine what the cops would
>>>>> do to you if they caught you littering on public lands?
>>>>> The now famous Los Angeles meteorites were found by a rock hound.
>>>>> Again a perfectly legal find as a rock under 250 ponds.
>>>>> Years later it was discovered and recognized as a meteorite. But
>>>>> again until then it was just an interesting rock. So, based on your
>>>>> position all of the dealers of LA mars rocks are out of favor with
>>>>> you? For that matter any and all finds without a permit like Gold
>>>>> Basin on Federal land are all in this same position. All illegal.
>>>>> Looks like your buying days are very limited?
>>>>> Obviously my only point here is that these laws are really really
>>>>> stupid. My two cents.
>>>>> Carl
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Carl or Debbie Esparza
>>>>> Meteoritemax
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---- Dennis Beatty wrote:
>>>>>> I have sporadically read the comments regarding the implementation of
>>>>>> new (or newly enforced) BLM rules...and am saddened and disappointed
>>>>>> at the overall tone of the responses. What is it about us and our
>>>>>> love of meteorites that gives us the right for personal gain?? As I
>>>>>> understand it, any item found on public land belongs to the American
>>>>>> people not some lucky individual that happens to stumble across
>>>>>> something of value. I have read several posts where fellow
>>>>>> collectors
>>>>>> have stated that should they find a meteorite on public land, they
>>>>>> will merely "refind" it on private land. Sheesh!! I will be going
>>>>>> back through this thread much more carefully and if those types
>>>>>> comments are tied to any dealers, I will definitely not patronize
>>>>>> them. And were is the IMCA on this?? Isn't ethical dealing one of
>>>>>> their mainstays??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps I am naive, but I had envisioned our group as seekers of
>>>>>> knowledge rather than modern day anti-government, do as I damn well
>>>>>> please rustlers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, there goes two cents...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dennis Beatty
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>>>>>
>>>>
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Received on Tue 09 Mar 2010 06:28:52 PM PST