[meteorite-list] It is a sad day.....

From: Jason Utas <meteoritekid_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 01:08:37 -0800
Message-ID: <93aaac891003090108x6833c8cfw70192bf3de769bfc_at_mail.gmail.com>

Eric, All,

Eric said, "You can't group all meteorite hunters into one group. You
alienate the professional hunter who records the data like you do."

I did and do make a distinction: I'll quote myself.

"Which isn't to say that many people aren't doing spectacular jobs of
documenting their finds, but perhaps there should be some sort of
qualifying criteria for the ability to pick up these scientific
treasures."

"And many hunters nowadays don't put forth the effort. Some do. Many do not."

The trouble is that I'm seeing many more of the inexperienced hunters
going out and actually finding meteorites - with little to no
realization of the fact that when they pick that stone up, they can't
undo it. And many of them simply don't record the locations of their
finds, especially if they were made in a known strewnfield such as
Franconia or Gold Basin. And so these strewnfields go unmapped, and
we will never really know how much of these meteorites has been found.

Greg said:
>Speaking of hunting for meteorites in an illegal way, you wrote, "So when you tell me that I'm breaking a law...kind of, >I suppose. I have never sold or traded a find, and never will. They will all wind up in an institution...."
> It doesn't matter whether they "wind up in an institution". If you break the law, you break the law....period. To say >otherwise is to rationalize.
>As for my questions about where do the laws come from, I of course was referring to the fact that laws come from >governments. My original point in my first post was only to point out that some governments get out of control. The >more out of control....the bigger the bureaucracy, the more wacked out laws occur. The fact is, I think most laws >concerning meteorites are counter productive.

First-off, "Speaking of hunting for meteorites in an illegal way."
The actual collection of meteorites is not prohibited in the state of
California. I've also never heard of anyone getting prosecuted for
doing it on public land in any other state, so...well, if you're
talking about hunting for meteorites illegally, then of course it's
going to be illegal.
But we don't, so it isn't.

Either way, you say the laws are wrong, but you'll still let them keep
you from hunting.
I say the laws are good (perhaps they should be a little more
stringent), but I try to keep things in order and not to break the
rules as much as possible (no off-road-driving in general or
destruction of natural preserves, and good documentation of finds,
etc.). In other words, we stick to the rules - if it says no
off-roading, we walk, and if the Smithsonian should ask me for a find,
which they've yet to do, I'm sure we could reach some agreement.
In that sense, no, I'm not breaking the law at all.
The actual collection of meteorites isn't legally prohibited (though
you seem to think that it is), but it is generally understood that
meteorites found on public land belong to the government. I'm not
holding them in spite of an expressed desire on the behalf of the
Smithsonian to have them, so, no, I'll say it again - I'm not actually
breaking any laws.

>As has been said countless times on this List, if the meteorite hunters didn't hunt and collect them, these wonderful rocks from space would just sit and rust away. But, if that happens, it happens. To hunt for them in an illegal way, is to break the law. There's no way around that.

Right, but you also need to put things in perspective. In our eight
years of hunting, we've found two meteorites of any real scientific
importance, and maybe three meteorites that were actually fresh enough
so that they might be perceptibly damaged by an additional few decades
of weathering.

While I do acknowledge that these stones would "rust away," the
trouble is that it would take thousands of years, and we all seem to
be writing off the possibility of a legitimate scientific recovery
program in the United States happening within that timeframe. While
there are no current plans for such a program, I see no reason why
such a thing wouldn't be easily plausible.

Either way, no real harm would come to the stones if we waited for a
few decades, so I'm really not sure about the legitimacy of your
claims. Yes, they would rust away. It would take thousands of years.
 We wouldn't lose any scientific information by waiting a few decades
for someone to put a comprehensive recovery program together.

But for some reason that seems unreasonable to most people...

>You know, Jason, I'm pretty much of a newbie when it comes to meteorites. I retired to Arizona about 5 years ago. I >had intended to try my hand at hunting in my state and the states that border Arizona. After checking with the people >at the BLM and other places, I found that there were too many restrictions (laws). So, I have a metal detector that I >bought for hunting and a magnet stick, both of which have seen no use. I do plan on using the detector in ways that >are legal, but unless I get an "all clear" from the authorities, meteorites won't be on my list of huntable objects.
>That's the way I see things. If you see them differently, I can live with that.

Maybe the collection of meteorites is prohibited in Arizona; I'm
pretty sure that it isn't, but I suppose it *could* be. Peraps other
list members have looked into it and might know.
That said, it's not prohibited here in California.
But it is generally understood that all finds belong to the
Smithsonian, should they express a desire for them. I assume that
most of the BLM restrictions you came across weren't
meteorite-specific at all, but pertained to land-use and the permits,
etc. required to even rockhound on public land. If you're talking
about that, then, yes, I agree - there are a frustrating amount of
hoops through which one must jump before one can legally hunt in many
places.
But all I can say to that is that we've run into patrols while hunting
for meteorites, told them what we were doing, and the general response
has always been "that's really cool - carry on." We've never been
turned away - except from private land, while chasing falls.

With regards to your other comment, "My original point in my first
post was only to point out that some governments get out of control.
The more out of control....the bigger the bureaucracy, the more wacked
out laws occur."

I see this as nothing more than rubbish. With larger bureaucracy
generally comes less personal control, granted, but with a larger
bureaucracy generally comes greater litigious stability; while some
odd laws do get through, generally speaking, smaller, more extreme
governments tend to pass the laws that we would actually consider to
be "bad."

Or would you prefer to live in a country that actually has a small
government - one like, say, Somalia? Sri Lanka? Sorry for not
including a western european country, but they generally provide free
healthcare, etc. Go figure.

Regards,

Jason

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 11:52 PM, Meteorites USA <eric at meteoritesusa.com> wrote:
> Jason,
>
> You can't group all meteorite hunters into one group. You alienate the
> professional hunter who records the data like you do. ?I commend you on your
> dry lake bed finds and the data you gathered! I wish all hunters did that. I
> hunt with and know many that do. But to say what you said so
> matter-of-factly is unfair to the rest of the hunting community that does
> care about preserving meteorite/strewnfield data.
>
> Your comment "appropriate scientific programs" ??? What, so only scientists
> are worthy to preserve data? This again I believe is the wrong philosophy
> and alienates the guys that actually get out there and spend thousands of
> hours in the field and record the data that is so very valuable to science.
>
> "...This, in my mind, is what many people are doing today in the field of
> meteorites. Yes, many meteorites are being recovered, but look around you at
> the staggering scientific losses that are occurring simultaneously..."
>
> You're confusing NWA meteorites with USA meteorites. Big difference. ;)
>
> All hunters I know and hunt with record ALL data from their finds and report
> this data to the scientific community. Regretfully, there are those that
> don't care about data, and they don't collect it, they are just after the
> money. But you can't have a free society and expect everyone to follow all
> the rules. There are going to be "bad apples" that spoil the bunch. Don't
> fall into the trap of grouping everyone together to make the decision
> process easier, that';s how we got in this mess to begin with. Again you're
> grouping responsible hunters with irresponsible ones and that's not fair or
> honest.
>
> Meteorite information needs to be protected, but there has to be another way
> that will allow both responsible meteorite hunters and scientists to
> continue to work together to preserve the data and NOT exclude any one group
> of people. It is after all taxpayer dollars that paid for that federal land
> and EVERY citizen of the United States has every right to hunt that land.
> They own it, the government only governs it, with our permission, we dole
> out or relinquish that permission with lobbying and voting our conscience
> and beliefs.
>
> Regards,
> Eric
>
>
>
> On 3/8/2010 10:43 PM, Jason Utas wrote:
>>
>> You tell me what's better: the right for irresponsible hunters to lose
>> information, or the protection of this irreplaceable ?scientific
>> information.
>
> ______________________________________________
> Visit the Archives at
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
Received on Tue 09 Mar 2010 04:08:37 AM PST


Help support this free mailing list:



StumbleUpon
del.icio.us
reddit
Yahoo MyWeb