[meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene

From: Meteorites USA <eric_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 20:01:40 -0800
Message-ID: <4B9476A4.905_at_meteoritesusa.com>

Hi Jason, Thanks for the response...

You stated:

"...orbits have little to do with any given geographical
point on the earth, and they do essentially hit the earth at random,
just as raindrops do..."

I would like to point out this is true, but only to a point of variable
when considering speed, elliptical path, and perturbations of the bodies
by other larger bodies. Any one variable has nothing to do with the
Earth except if it gets close to Earth (or another body), then it's
orbit can be affected...

Even so, asteroids are predictable. Very predictable in fact. Orbits can
be calculated, and impacts predicted. Though this has only happened
once, we're at the beginning of an understanding of asteroid science as
such has never been seen before in the history of human kind. If one can
predict the impact of one asteroid, one can predict the orbit of another
or even an entire meteoroid stream.

Here's a hypothetical... An asteroid smashes into another, a group of
thousands of pieces of debris go flying off into space towards the inner
solar system. Over hundreds of thousands of years (maybe shorter) these
bits of debris get swallowed up b the Sun, planets, and other larger
asteroids floating around in eccentric orbits. Now these orbits are not
related whatsoever to Earth's orbit other than they orbit the Sun. Now
let say for sake of argument ALL pieces but 2 get pulled into other
planets or get burned up by the Sun. This leaves two pieces. Now these
two pieces could be hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of miles
apart or more. One could be traveling slightly faster than the other but
in the exact same elliptical orbit around the Sun. One piece could
impact Earth while the other, being further behind misses, and doesn't
cross the same space at the same time as Earth for another 11 years.
That's really a short period in universe-time isn't it? Then again, this
scenario could be reversed. The first piece could miss, the second piece
could hit 11 years later. The orbit would not be disturbed that much
would it?

I'm not so much arguing that the 2 Wethersfield stones are without a
doubt the same meteorite. I'm simply saying it seems like an awfully big
coincidence to me that they hit the same location. I see the logic
behind the rain analogy, but that was rather a close minded and an
insulting answer in my opinion. Perhaps again, I took it wrong. If so I
apologize to Martin publicly for taking it that way.

I ask these questions in an open minded way, fully expecting to be
pointed at and/or told I'm wrong, however I think it's all about
building on the knowledge we have, and not closing our minds to
possibilities because someone says it's unlikely.

That's all...

Regards,
Eric


On 3/7/2010 7:31 PM, Jason Utas wrote:
> Eric, Martin, All,
> I thought the analogy was a good one; in both cases you have things
> that fall literally at random from the sky hitting the ground at the
> same spot. Yes, raindrops don't orbit the sun, but the fact remains
> that asteroids' orbits have little to do with any given geographical
> point on the earth, and they do essentially hit the earth at random,
> just as raindrops do.
> It's just that we get a lot more rain here than we get meteorites.
>
> Eric also said:
> I would venture a guess that if someone found two meteorites of the
> same class 1.4 miles away from one another as cold finds they would
> assume the area would be a strewnfield until proven otherwise. This
> without of course taking into account any dating of the stones.
>
> Well, maybe. But many L6's are distinct morphologically. Yes, if two
> *identical* meteorites that were not part of the same
> meteoroid/asteroid when entering the atmosphere fell close together at
> roughly the same time, we wouldn't be able to tell them apart. But if
> you limit the distinction to two meteorites of the same type being
> found within a mile or so of each other and provide no other
> qualifications (such as overall appearance, chemical composition,
> shock grade, etc.), then, odds are, they won't be similar enough to
> warrant pairing them.
>
> Compare:
>
> http://www.meteoritemarket.com/GOR58-8A.jpg
>
> http://www.meteoritemarket.com/ST66-31A.jpg
>
> http://www.sv-meteorites.com/meteorite.aspx?id=382
>
> http://www.meteorites.com.au/collection/Kendleton%20L4%204.2g%20(1%20of%202).jpg
>
> Goronyo, Saratov, Souslovo, Kendleton. All pretty fresh L4's [I chose
> a class at random].
>
> Here's a great example of just how different many 'types' can be. I
> find it amusing to scroll through them to see just how different
> practically every meteorite looks relative to those near it...
>
> http://www.meteorites.com.au/collection/chondrites.html
>
> And then there will always be the heterogeneous meteorites like
> Almahatta-Sita, Portales Valley, or Park Forest, to name a few. Part
> of the same fall, but take a look at two pieces and research would
> suggest that they're distinct falls.
>
> Regards,
> Jason
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Meteorites USA<eric at meteoritesusa.com> wrote:
>
>> I was going to stay closed mouth since I opened it a few hours ago and got
>> my theory handed back to me very matter-of-factly. However, a rain drop is
>> hardly a meteorite and does not orbit the Sun, unless of course it somehow
>> miraculously escapes the Earth's gravitational field. But then it would
>> freeze in deep space and would no longer be considered rain now would it? I
>> believe frozen water is called ice if I'm correct. but then again wouldn't
>> it melt once it got closer to the sun? I could be wrong here so please point
>> out if I am... I'm sure you will.
>>
>> All the BS aside, I would venture a guess that if someone found two
>> meteorites of the same class 1.4 miles away from one another as cold finds
>> they would assume the area would be a strewnfield until proven otherwise.
>> This without of course taking into account any dating of the stones.
>>
>> Didn't I read a while back about asteroid-quakes? As asteroids near the
>> Earth newer material is brought to the surface. In other words, would an
>> asteroid's surface act as a shield against the cosmic rays to the interior
>> of the asteroid? Would this affect anything at all? Is ALL material in any
>> given asteroid the same age, or is this age determined by the cosmic
>> radiation levels within any given part? Does this take into account other
>> older and younger bodies impacting a parent body and becoming part of that
>> body? Is accretion real or a figment of scientific world's imagination? Am I
>> asking too many questions? ;)
>>
>> I'm being facetious of course. Now, I'm assuming a lot of things here, and
>> call me an ass if you like, but at least I didn't sound like an ass by
>> slamming someone else on-list and insulting them by explaining what rain is.
>>
>> As far as I know a meteorite is made of stone or iron, or a mixture of both
>> and it comes from an asteroid, and these asteroids come from space and all
>> have orbits unless those orbits are perturbed by a larger body, like which I
>> have been apparently.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/7/2010 5:24 PM, Martin Altmann wrote:
>>
>>> Yah,
>>>
>>> and the Earth is rotating. Eric, calculate how far seen from a fix point
>>> from space that little town is moving on his latitude circle in a few
>>> seconds only...
>>>
>>> Shht Eric, you have a spot in your garden, of only 1/3 inch diameter.
>>> An incredible spot.
>>> Because there it happened, that two projectiles of a diameter of only a
>>> few
>>> mm, falling from an altitude of thousands of feet, hit each other in
>>> exactly
>>> the same spot on the ground!
>>> And that happens several times a year!
>>> Check it out. It's called "rain" and whenever it rains, you will see that
>>> the spot is wet...
>>>
>>> Best!
>>> Martin
>>>
>>> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>>> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Rob
>>> Matson
>>> Gesendet: Montag, 8. M?rz 2010 01:48
>>> An: Meteorites USA
>>> Cc: Meteorite List
>>> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart?
>>> BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene
>>>
>>> Hi Eric,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Statistically it seems very possible they are related and from
>>>> the same parent body. In fact the probability of them NOT being
>>>> related seems remote as it doesn't make sense not to consider
>>>> the likelihood of a pairing relationship.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The only factor about the two Wethersfield falls that suggests a
>>> pairing is the L6 classification they share. However, since L6 is
>>> one of the most common meteorite classifications, it's hardly
>>> compelling evidence for a common immediate precursor body (IPB).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Has anyone looked at Google Earth and zoomed out to see how small
>>>> a spot that actually is? That's like shooting a speeding bullet
>>>> out of the air with another. The Earth is rotating ~365 times per
>>>> year, x 11 years that's 4015 rotations of the earth and 11 complete
>>>> orbits around the Sun. Two small rocks of the same exact type
>>>> floated around the solar system for millions/billions of years,
>>>> and crash land within 1.4 miles of each other only 11 years
>>>> apart and they are not related?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Let me counter your theory with one question: Why should a
>>> meteorite stream have orbital characteristics that are synchronous
>>> with earth's day, or more specifically earth's geography?
>>>
>>> Think about it: there is no dynamical mechanism to produce such
>>> synchronicity. It is far more likely that truly paired meteorites
>>> falling in different years would do so in completely different
>>> parts of the world. Given the miniscule fraction of falls that are
>>> successfully recovered each year, the odds are very long that two
>>> falls -- in different years -- will ever be recovered that provably
>>> came from the same IPB.
>>>
>>> --Rob
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Received on Sun 07 Mar 2010 11:01:40 PM PST