[meteorite-list] question about olivine diogenites

From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks <meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:47:49 -0400
Message-ID: <AANLkTiktRj_TjZYUP9aagmhjOMujXmMwom_q2cd4p4c__at_mail.gmail.com>

Hi Greg and List,

I don't recall the dealer's name at the moment, but there is a major
European dealer whose website still insists that Al-Hagg is an aubrite
and he even mentions the other EL3 classification and defends the
aubrite classification. In that particular case, I think the
motivation is money. An NWA aubrite is more rare and worth more money
than a NWA EL. That's my guess at least. Given the enormous amount
of data that clearly shows that Al-Hagg is NOT an aubrite, that
classification continues to have legs. I have seen chondrules in my
own Al-Hagg specimens, so it's pretty hard for me to believe that it's
an aubrite.

I think olivine diogenites have cemented themselves into the
nomenclature. There is no doubt that 1877, 1459, 6149 and other OD's
are much different than more-common diogenites. A simple visual
examination will show that OD's are vastly different than diogenites.

And now we are starting to see dunite added to the HEDO group. So
it's possible that HEDO will become HEDOD.

Best regards,

MikeG






On 6/11/10, Greg Hupe <gmhupe at htn.net> wrote:
> Hi MikeG and List,
>
> Your bringing up Al-Haggounia is a perfect example of errors and corrections
> that need to be made. Al-Haggounia is actually one of the pairings to NWA
> 2828, the first one to come out regarding that meteorite. When I first
> submitted the full type sample to UWS for classification, none of that
> material had any of the ghost-like "chondrules" present. After the initial
> classification was submitted and an abstract was written regarding NWA 2828
> as an aubrite, I then started to cut some of the material to start offering
> it to collectors. At that time is when the first "chondrules" started to
> make themselves known. I immediately contacted the classifying scientists
> and sent more samples with the "chondrules" to be studied. After much more
> analysis, it was at that time the aubrite classification was dismissed and
> EL3 was approved. The same scientists wrote a new abstract with the
> correction. Why the classifying scientist for Al-Haggounia refuses to
> acknowledge the presence of "chondrules" in NWA 2828 (AKA Al-Haggounia) is a
> mystery to me and many scientists. Here is a link to a web page discussing
> NWA 2828 and why "Al-Haggounia" is NOT an aubrite. At least the original
> classifying scientists of this EL3 material did the right thing and wrote a
> corrected abstract, no worries of embarrassment, only interested in the
> truth!
>
> Link to Northern Arizona University (NAU) web site classification
> discussion:
> http://www4.nau.edu/meteorite/Meteorite/Al_Haggounia.html
>
>
>
> Link to abstract with NWA 2828 classification correction:
>
> http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006AGUFM.P51E1247K
>
>
>
> Best regards,
> Greg
>
> ====================
> Greg Hupe
> The Hupe Collection
> NaturesVault (eBay)
> gmhupe at htn.net
> www.LunarRock.com
> IMCA 3163
> ====================
> Click here for my current eBay auctions:
> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
> To: "Kieron Heard" <kieron.heard at ukonline.co.uk>
> Cc: "Greg Hupe" <gmhupe at htn.net>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 2:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] question about olivine diogenites
>
>
>> Hi Kieron and List,
>>
>> Nomenclature is a fickle thing. For example, before the CK class of
>> carbonaceous chondrites was officially recognized, all CK meteorites
>> were thought to be members of the extended Vigarano group (CV) - CV4,
>> CV5, etc. If you search the web, you'll see some older documents that
>> still describe these meteorites as CV. Like Greg said, as new
>> information comes to light, the classifications and details of those
>> classifications can change. Maintaining the Met Bulletin database is
>> no easy job (ask Dr. Jeff Grossman), and sometimes it takes quite a
>> bit of time for the database to reflect the new data.
>>
>> Heck, Al-Haggounia 001 is still listed as an "aubrite", even though
>> numerous scientists have since corrected that initial classification
>> to "EL3" or Enstatite Chondrite. The problem with Al-Hagg (which is
>> also a problem with some other meteorites), is that the initial
>> classification was done a single specimen whose lithology did not
>> represent the entire find. So, the initial classification was not
>> "wrong" per-se, but it was based on limited information that did not
>> allow a proper classification. It's been a few years now and the
>> Bulletin still says "aubrite".
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> MikeG
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/11/10, Kieron Heard <kieron.heard at ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Thanks Greg (and MikeG and GregS),
>>>
>>> That's much clearer now
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best, Kieron
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Greg Hupe [mailto:gmhupe at htn.net]
>>> Sent: 11 June 2010 18:47
>>> To: Kieron Heard; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] question about olivine diogenites
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Kieron,
>>>
>>> I made a mistake in my first reply regarding the order as the Olivine
>>> Diogenites (OD's) were found. There were two Antarctic OD's found first
>>> and
>>> then NWA 1459. Since there were only two OD's at first, and then a third,
>>> the term "Olivine Diogenite" was adopted. Since NWA 1459 was discovered,
>>> scientists and collectors were openly referring to these type of
>>> meteorites
>>> as "Olivine Diogenite". From what I understand, a name of a group is not
>>> officially recognized until after some time has passed where wide usage
>>> of a
>>> name is used in abstracts, general discussion and the like and that at
>>> least
>>> three meteorites of the same type are known. The HED group (Howardite,
>>> Eucrite, Diogenite) is an accepted and official group for those
>>> meteorites.
>>> After a third meteorite of the "OD" type was discovered (NWA 1459), this
>>> made three in that group and HEDO was adopted by some scientists to
>>> include
>>> OD's with the previous HED group. After NWA 1877 and NWA 5480 were
>>> discovered, HEDO is an even more widely used name for that group of four
>>> meteorite types and may be official at this point with its five OD
>>> members,
>>> I am not sure on the 'official' status but was or would need to be, voted
>>>
>>> on
>>> by the committee. You had asked why NWA 1459 is still listed in the
>>> Meteoritical Bulletin as "Diogenite". The answer to this is that with all
>>>
>>> of
>>> the meteorites and types that have come out of NWA over the recent years,
>>> there are lots of meteorites that need to be revised, info corrected and
>>> updated after newer scientific information was found after the initial
>>> classification was submitted by the scientists.
>>>
>>> I hope this explains OD's a little better. There are scientists and
>>> committee members who can explain this much better than I can if I was
>>> unclear.
>>>
>>> Hope everyone has a great weekend!
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> ====================
>>> Greg Hupe
>>> The Hupe Collection
>>> NaturesVault (eBay)
>>> gmhupe at htn.net
>>> www.LunarRock.com
>>> IMCA 3163
>>> ====================
>>> Click here for my current eBay auctions:
>>> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Kieron Heard" <kieron.heard at ukonline.co.uk>
>>> To: "Greg Hupe" <gmhupe at htn.net>; "Greg Stanley"
>>> <stanleygregr at hotmail.com>;
>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 12:51 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] question about olivine diogenites
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks for your replies chaps but I am still mystified. I accept that
>>>> NWA
>>>> 1459 is another example of an olivine diogenite, but why then is its
>>>> recommended classification in the MetBull Database simply 'diogenite'
>>>> and
>>>> not 'diogenite-olivine'?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards, Kieron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Greg Hupe [mailto:gmhupe at htn.net]
>>>> Sent: 11 June 2010 17:30
>>>> To: Greg Stanley; kieron.heard at ukonline.co.uk;
>>>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] question about olivine diogenites
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello Kieron, GregS and List,
>>>>
>>>> The first recognized Olivine Diogenite was NWA 1459, then came along NWA
>>>> 1877(w/ pairing 5603, and others), then NWA 5480 (and pairings). I am
>>>> not
>>>> familiar with GRA 98108.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>> ====================
>>>> Greg Hupe
>>>> The Hupe Collection
>>>> NaturesVault (eBay)
>>>> gmhupe at htn.net
>>>> www.LunarRock.com
>>>> IMCA 3163
>>>> ====================
>>>> Click here for my current eBay auctions:
>>>> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Greg Stanley" <stanleygregr at hotmail.com>
>>>> To: <kieron.heard at ukonline.co.uk>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 12:13 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] question about olivine diogenites
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> List:
>>>>>
>>>>> Is not NWA 5480 an olivine diogenite too?
>>>>>
>>>>> Greg S.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>> From: kieron.heard at ukonline.co.uk
>>>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 10:13:49 +0100
>>>>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] question about olivine diogenites
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Folks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if anyone can offer some advice? I am pleased to have
>>>>>> obtained
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> sample of NWA 6149 (prov) - an olivine diogenite. This prompted me to
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> some research on the MetBull Database, and I see that there are only
>>>>>> three
>>>>>> meteorites that are classified there as 'olivine diogenites' (MIL
>>>>>> 07001,
>>>>>> NWA
>>>>>> 5603 and NWA 6157). Other stones that have in the past been described
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> olivine diogenites (such as GRA 98108 and NWA 1459) have recommended
>>>>>> classifications of 'diogenite', despite seeming to have a significant
>>>>>> olivine content.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So my question is, What is the requirement for a meteorite to be
>>>>>> recorded
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the database as as 'olivine diogenite'?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks in advance for any information.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards, Kieron
>>>>>>
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>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone & Ironworks Meteorites
>> http://www.galactic-stone.com
>> http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone & Ironworks Meteorites
http://www.galactic-stone.com
http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
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Received on Fri 11 Jun 2010 02:47:49 PM PDT