[meteorite-list] Trends with WI Fall and alike for July

From: countdeiro at earthlink.net <countdeiro_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 21:47:36 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <22134546.1278380856425.JavaMail.root_at_wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

David is so right when he says "We are not entitled to a certain price."

This thread has drawn some pretty inane comments. Most are based on the question of why buyers have been unsuccssful in influencing sellers to offer their meteorites at lower prices. Particularly fresh offerings.

What is it about a free market system that isn't broadly understood? Nobody has a gun to anyone's head to buy, or sell! The item becomes available. The seller asks a price. His price. There are no rules he has to follow. He offers it. You like it...you want it...then pay his price. If the price is too high for you then don't buy it. If enough buyers elect not to buy at the price offered...guess what? The price will come down. It's called, as David also said, "supply and demand."

Lets not try to argue the unarguable. It's maddening!

Best,

Count Deiro
IMCA

 

-----Original Message-----
>From: Greg Stanley <stanleygregr at hotmail.com>
>Sent: Jul 1, 2010 5:25 PM
>To: drose at emersonhosp.org, star_wars_collector at yahoo.com, Mike <fuzzfoot at comcast.net>, mike <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, photophlow at yahoo.com
>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Trends with WI Fall and alike for July
>
>
>List:
>
>What if during the next fall nobody pays the $100/gm price, then it will come down until people buy it.? I know that will be hard to do, but the consumer can dictate the price.? Although, there is the chance the sellers will not sell for less, then they have to keep them... the price will eventually come down, I would think.
>
>Oh well... it's all part of the hobby.
>
>Greg S.
>
>----------------------------------------
>> From: DRose at emersonhosp.org
>> To: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com; fuzzfoot at comcast.net; meteoritemike at gmail.com
>> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 20:42:09 +0000
>> CC: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; photophlow at yahoo.com
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Trends with WI Fall and alike for July
>>
>> Again, it is a matter of supply and demand and whether an individual collector is willing to pay the price. The TKW for the WI fall is currently low, but that wasn't known when the $100/gm prices were being charged. Reports that the material was being bought from landownwers at $10/gm or less don't help the feeling among collectors that they were/are being gouged, but then it is an individual's choice to buy or not to buy. Nobody likes to feel that they are being taken advantage of, but if that is the way it feels, don't buy (I know that's hard!)
>>
>> As a collector, I don't like the price trends either, particularly when old, historic falls with museum provenance are sometimes cheaper per gram, but there is no "right" level for a fall, we are not entitled to a certain price. The market will decide.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> David
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Greg Catterton
>> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 4:05 PM
>> To: Mike Bandli; Galactic Stone & Ironworks
>> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; Shawn Alan
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Trends with WI Fall and alike for July
>>
>> The WI fall was a strange one. I think too many people were trying to get rich of others.
>> Before anyone comes at me with the numbers of the trip, I know and I understand, but at the same time, it can be done for much less.
>>
>> When I see reports of the landowners selling the stones for less then $10 per gram (I know of several who would not pay more the $3 per gram!)and then see them selling it for $100/g or more, thats just too much...
>>
>> Why do you think the 2 kg stone was hushed up so much? I have seen pics of it, so have many others and yet nobody wants to act like it exists and people still call a 330g stone the main mass when in reality, its far from the main mass.
>>
>> I dont like the trend with new falls and the prices that go with them, its taking advantage of collectors. Thats the whole reason I sold my WI material at $60 or less when others were still getting $100 or more... and I got many mean emails filled with profanity over putting that price public... Why? They knew they it would hurt the value. I did not sell it for that to do that, I did it because its not worth any more then that, and anyone who says it is, I ask again, why?
>>
>> There is likely 10kg or more of the fall, its not rare by any means.
>>
>> Sure there is a price to pay for those that cant make it to the fall site, but when is it too much?
>>
>>
>> Greg Catterton
>> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
>> IMCA member 4682
>> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
>> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>>
>>
>> --- On Thu, 7/1/10, Galactic Stone & Ironworks wrote:
>>
>>> From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Trends with WI Fall and alike for July
>>> To: "Mike Bandli"
>>> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, "Shawn Alan"
>>> Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 2:40 PM
>>> "In the end, I think this is all
>>> being overanalyzed to death. There is no
>>> magic formula for determining what the price is going to
>>> do. Did the price
>>> go down on Puerto Lapice, or Villalbeto de la Pe?a, or
>>> Daule, or
>>> Leighlinbridge? I bet many wish they did not wait for
>>> prices to fall on
>>> those."
>>>
>>> Agreed here. There is only one certainty about the
>>> meteorite market -
>>> she is fickle mistress. ;)
>>>
>>> There some falls that will never come down in price, due to
>>> scarcity
>>> of available specimens. Cali is a good example I
>>> think. Whetstone
>>> will likely hold it's value well.
>>>
>>> Maybe a good discussion would be "ATW" - or available total
>>> weight. A
>>> fall may have a sizeable TKW, but if the majority of the
>>> material is
>>> locked away from the private market, then the price will
>>> reflect that.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> MikeG
>>>
>>> On 7/1/10, Mike Bandli
>>> wrote:
>>>> MikeG wrote: "The TKW is vastly different, but TKW
>>> should not be a factor in
>>>> a fall being considered "historical.""
>>>>
>>>> I think you mean "historic," but I said nothing about
>>> TKW meaning something
>>>> was historic or that Buzzard was not significant.
>>>>
>>>> In the end, I think this is all being overanalyzed to
>>> death. There is no
>>>> magic formula for determining what the price is going
>>> to do. Did the price
>>>> go down on Puerto Lapice, or Villalbeto de la Pe?a,
>>> or Daule, or
>>>> Leighlinbridge? I bet many wish they did not wait for
>>> prices to fall on
>>>> those.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers!
>>>>
>>>> Mike Bandli
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>> Mike Bandli
>>>> Historic Meteorites
>>>> www.HistoricMeteorites.com
>>>> IMCA #5765
>>>> -----------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks [mailto:meteoritemike at gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 9:23 AM
>>>> To: Mike Bandli
>>>> Cc: Shawn Alan; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Trends with WI Fall and
>>> alike for July
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mike and List,
>>>>
>>>> No, I did not mean that first buyers are all
>>> inexperienced or
>>>> impatient. Some are. Some are not.
>>> We all have different reasons
>>>> for acquiring certain meteorites and the "first on the
>>> block"
>>>> mentality appeals to many. If money was no
>>> concern for me, I would
>>>> all sizeable specimens of every fall I
>>> mentioned. But I must be very
>>>> careful with my funds - or my wife will kill me or the
>>> pantry will go
>>>> empty.
>>>>
>>>> Whetstone Mountains - the first recovered
>>> Arizona fall in nearly 100 years.
>>>>> Probably the most documented recovery in history.
>>> Very little available to
>>>>> collectors. Fireball captured on video.
>>>>
>>>> Buzzard Coulee - first ever recovered fall in
>>> Saskatchewan. Fireball
>>>> captured on video to great effect. The TKW is
>>> vastly different, but
>>>> TKW should not be a factor in a fall being considered
>>> "historical"
>>>> (IMO) - if so, every tiny Antarctic fragment would
>>> have historical
>>>> significance despite not being witnessed. The
>>> prices for Buzzard are
>>>> much lower than Whetstone and the only difference is
>>> TKW - not
>>>> historical significance.
>>>>
>>>>> Daule - the first and only Ecuadorian meteorite to
>>> ever be recovered.
>>>>> Obviously an historic event for Ecuador. Beautiful
>>> shock breccia. Under
>>>> one
>>>>> kilo available to collectors.
>>>>
>>>> Ok, I am schooled on this one. I did not recall
>>> that the TKW was less
>>>> than one kilo and I did not recall that it was
>>> Ecuador's first. I
>>>> think the price on Daule has remained high not because
>>> of it's
>>>> historical significance, but because the supply is
>>> tied up in the
>>>> hands of a very few dealers who have coordinated their
>>> prices -
>>>> essentially the price is fixed on Daule and the same
>>> could be argued
>>>> (true or not) for Whetstone.
>>>>
>>>>> Wisconsin - the most covered fall in history.
>>> Witnessed by tens of
>>>> thousands
>>>>> of people. Stunning breccia. Low recovered weight
>>> and horrible search/find
>>>>> ratio (much more expensive to find). The pre-rain,
>>> low-oxidized material
>>>>> will always hold a premium, because the contrast
>>> of the breccia is lost
>>>> with
>>>>> oxidation. I believe this one will also be orbit
>>> calculated.
>>>>
>>>> Like Ecuador, it is a beautiful breccia - but that is
>>> an aesthetic
>>>> concern. There are tons of gorgeous breccias on
>>> the market. NWA 788
>>>> is a gorgeous breccia but it sells for pennies
>>> compared to Daule, Ash
>>>> Creek, Peekskill or Wisconsin. Of course, I am
>>> comparing a NWA find
>>>> to a witnessed fall, but a pretty breccia is a pretty
>>> breccia, and
>>>> it's not rare. I am very eager to hear more
>>> about Wisconsin,
>>>> including the classification data and orbit if it is
>>> calculated. It
>>>> is odd that the TKW of Wisconsin will likely be much
>>> lower than Ash
>>>> Creek, yet already the Wisconsin prices are dropping
>>> faster than Ash
>>>> Creek did. Odd.
>>>>
>>>>> For those of us who don't view things through the
>>> prisms of type or price,
>>>>> all meteorite falls and recoveries are special and
>>> significant events.
>>>>
>>>> I agree here. These are truly amazing events and
>>> opportunities to
>>>> educate people about science. But I would remiss
>>> to ignore the
>>>> economic factors behind the valuation criteria.
>>> Whetstone Mountains
>>>> is a great fall and I do not mean to denigrate it in
>>> any way. But few
>>>> would argue that the promotional strategy behind that
>>> fall played a
>>>> significant role in it's market pricing.
>>> Schrader, Gheesling, Farmer
>>>> and others did a great job in promoting the highlights
>>> of this fall -
>>>> without that marketing machine, it may have faded into
>>> obscurity (and
>>>> the bargain bin) much quicker. Some would argue
>>> that it was not
>>>> "marketing" or "promotion" per-se, but perceptions
>>> cannot be ignored
>>>> and there is a perception that these forces were at
>>> work behind that
>>>> fall.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards and happy huntings,
>>>>
>>>> MikeG
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/1/10, Mike Bandli
>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hello MikeG,
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe you don't mean it, but your post implies
>>> that those that don't wait
>>>>> for some kind of price drop are inexperienced,
>>> impatient, or na?ve. This
>>>>> couldn't be further from the truth. Many of those
>>> that purchase
>>>> immediately
>>>>> are just the opposite - experienced, long-time
>>> collectors. It has nothing
>>>> to
>>>>> do with "being the first on the block to own it."
>>> In the case of
>>>> Wisconsin,
>>>>> many wanted complete stones, which were few and
>>> far between. Many wanted
>>>>> pre-rain material. Whatever the reason, they are
>>> all good reasons, and
>>>>> everyone is happy.
>>>>>
>>>>> MikeG wrote: "Despite the marketing hype, there is
>>> little special about
>>>> any
>>>>> of them beyond the significance the buyer attaches
>>> to them."
>>>>>
>>>>> I won't attach any significance to them, but will
>>> state the facts:
>>>>>
>>>>> Whetstone Mountains - the first recovered Arizona
>>> fall in nearly 100
>>>> years.
>>>>> Probably the most documented recovery in history.
>>> Very little available to
>>>>> collectors. Fireball captured on video.
>>>>>
>>>>> Daule - the first and only Ecuadorian meteorite to
>>> ever be recovered.
>>>>> Obviously an historic event for Ecuador. Beautiful
>>> shock breccia. Under
>>>> one
>>>>> kilo available to collectors.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wisconsin - the most covered fall in history.
>>> Witnessed by tens of
>>>> thousands
>>>>> of people. Stunning breccia. Low recovered weight
>>> and horrible search/find
>>>>> ratio (much more expensive to find). The pre-rain,
>>> low-oxidized material
>>>>> will always hold a premium, because the contrast
>>> of the breccia is lost
>>>> with
>>>>> oxidation. I believe this one will also be orbit
>>> calculated.
>>>>>
>>>>> For those of us who don't view things through the
>>> prisms of type or price,
>>>>> all meteorite falls and recoveries are special and
>>> significant events.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Bandli
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>> Mike Bandli
>>>>> Historic Meteorites
>>>>> www.HistoricMeteorites.com
>>>>> IMCA #5765
>>>>> -----------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Galactic
>>>>> Stone & Ironworks
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 7:26 AM
>>>>> To: Shawn Alan
>>>>> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Trends with WI Fall
>>> and alike for July
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Shawn and List,
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps I am off-base here, but I think we are
>>> witnessing (in part) a
>>>>> dynamic of collecting meteorites.
>>>>>
>>>>> New collectors are steadily entering this
>>> field/hobby and those who
>>>>> stay will mature and learn. Their knowledge
>>> of meteoritics,
>>>>> collecting, and the market will increase with
>>> their experience. What
>>>>> we saw with Ash Creek is different than what we
>>> are seeing now with
>>>>> Wisconsin because the greater collector market is
>>> maturing. Perhaps
>>>>> now we are in-between the influx crowds of newbies
>>> and the majority of
>>>>> current collectors are becoming more savvy in
>>> their purchases. One of
>>>>> the first lessons about falls that newbies learn
>>> is patience. It's
>>>>> the same with most things - the first person on
>>> the block to have a
>>>>> thing, pays much more for that thing. So the
>>> rest of the people sit
>>>>> back and wait for the price to come down - which
>>> it usually does.
>>>>> Those who wanted to be the first on the block to
>>> own Wisconsin now
>>>>> have it, and now the rest of us are waiting to get
>>> a better price.
>>>>> The new and inexperienced will rush out to pay top
>>> dollar for a common
>>>>> chondrite because it is exciting to them,
>>> regardless of the petrologic
>>>>> type or circumstances of the fall. Perhaps
>>> the "Class of Ash Creek"
>>>>> has graduated and now we are seeing the benefits
>>> of patience, rational
>>>>> assessment, and experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, this could change in a moment when the
>>> second season of
>>>>> Meteorite Men starts and a new flock of eager
>>> beginners discovers
>>>>> meteorites. Or when the next brilliant
>>> fireball goes viral on
>>>>> YouTube.
>>>>>
>>>>> I still don't own a sizeable specimen of Ash
>>> Creek, Whetstone
>>>>> Mountains, Daule, or Wisconsin and I won't until
>>> the right price comes
>>>>> along. Those falls just don't fit into my
>>> collecting scheme - because
>>>>> they are ordinary chondrites that fell under
>>> ordinary circumstances
>>>>> (for the most part). Despite the marketing
>>> hype, there is little
>>>>> special about any of them beyond the significance
>>> the buyer attaches
>>>>> to them. Do any of the above have the
>>> makings of a truly "historical"
>>>>> fall - maybe, maybe not. Are they rare
>>> types? No. I'm not trying to
>>>>> downplay any of these falls, but I think few would
>>> argue that these
>>>>> falls were well worth the prices they were
>>> introduced at.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> MikeG
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/1/10, Shawn Alan
>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello Listers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have noticed with the Livingston WI
>>> meteorite Fall in April that the
>>>>>> prices were at a good high, well over $100 a
>>> gram for the first month
>>>>> being
>>>>>> sold on eBay and alike. And then a rush
>>> happened over night with a few
>>>>>> sellers on eBay and the meteorite market and
>>> it was mayhem. However, in
>>>>> the
>>>>>> past few weeks I have noticed prices dropping
>>> low, and I mean low.
>>>> Tonight
>>>>>> on eBay a WI slice weighing at 3.8 sold at $78
>>> and another slice at 9.66g
>>>>>> sold at $285.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With other recent falls they tend to stay high
>>> for the first year from
>>>>> what
>>>>>> I have seen with sales and research, but with
>>> the WI fall this isn't the
>>>>>> case. I am left to wondering why is it with
>>> this fall that it had a great
>>>>>> led in sales in the first month and dropped so
>>> low in less then 2 months,
>>>>>> not to mention the lack of WI meteorites found
>>> in the field? Is it that
>>>>>> majority of the WI fall meteorites are being
>>> sold at a recorded high
>>>>> weight,
>>>>>> dealers selling the big boys all at once?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see that this coming month that sales with
>>> historic falls will keep
>>>>> going
>>>>>> up and the exchange of rare and special
>>> meteorite falls will be revisited
>>>>>> for the fact of the rich history they command
>>> in the market and with
>>>>>> collectors alike. Also not to mention, the new
>>> NWAs that keep popping up
>>>>>> will bring a new twist to the collecting
>>> world. All I can say is history
>>>>>> repeats its self and history can out weigh
>>> anything through and through
>>>>>> again while trends come and go. Hold on and
>>> lets see what July brings for
>>>>>> the hot summer month to cool our needs for
>>> meteorites.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shawn Alan
>>>>>> IMCA 1633
>>>>>> eBaystore
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p
>>>>> 4340
>>>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>>> Visit the Archives at
>>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
>>> Meteorites
>>>>> http://www.galactic-stone.com
>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
>>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>> Visit the Archives at
>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
>>> Meteorites
>>>> http://www.galactic-stone.com
>>>> http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone & Ironworks Meteorites
>>> http://www.galactic-stone.com
>>> http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
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Received on Mon 05 Jul 2010 09:47:36 PM PDT