[meteorite-list] organics in Muchison.....

From: Matthias Bärmann <majbaermann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:18:30 +0100
Message-ID: <64F79D6DFF26421BA090664B7F3B02E9_at_thinkcentre>

Dear Zelimir,

thank you so much for your effort to answer the questions of a layman on
this field - very impressive indeed, I estimate that much.

I like the expression "biochemical space". And indeed, the question seems to
be, what a kind of transformational space - if indeed - it is. The
 differentiation between "diversity" and "complexity" seems to be important
 too, as you've pointed out clearly. Perhaps we'll hear some additional
 opinions here on the list, would be great.

 And the smell? Well, let's pull out the cork ... ... ah ... good vintage
...
 4.6 ...

 My best as ever,

 Matthias


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Zelimir.Gabelica at uha.fr>
> To: "Matthias B?rmann" <majbaermann at web.de>
> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 5:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] organics in Muchison.....
>
>
>
> Dear Matthias,
>
> Your questions are very pertinent. I'll try to reply the best I can,
> by trying to avoid confusion between "diversity" and "complexity".
>
> Let's try to simplify.
> Here is my modest understanding of the issue, bearing in mind I am by
> no means an expert in biology and its development, neither I am
> regarding the conditions in space that can provoke (or at least had
> provoked in Murchison) a high molecular diversity.
>
> Our spectra richness gives (experimental) evidence of intrinsic and
> compositional diversity in space, within and across chemical classes,
> which is an acknowledged feature of extraterrestrial chemistry (see
> e.g. J. R. Cronin et al., Geochim. Cosmochim. Acta 57 (1993), 4745
> Comparable but lesser diversity was also found in terrestrial organic
> matter. Ref.: N. Hertkorn et al., Anal. Chem. 80 (2008), 9808 ;
> Norbert Hertkorn, co-author of our paper, is expert, along with Phil
> Schmitt-Kopplin, of NOM's (Natural Organic Matter, thus "humic acids"
> & related, present in terrestrial aqueous systems ....)
>
> To answer more specifically your 6 questions (that are related), I'd say:
> No, the development of life does not depend (necessarily) on a kind of
> reduction of chemical diversity.
> In other words, life can develop (as it did on Earth) from a
> relatively small (reduced or not) number of initial molecules,
> provided some other parameters (than in space) act as driving force
> (presence of oxygen, water (under ambient conditions), ambient (= not
> extreme) temperature.....).
> But this does not imply that it can't develop from a large number of
> molecules as well.
> This does certainly not mean that such a life did not develop
> "somewhere in space" under different conditions.
> As mentioned J. R. Beda in his comments on our paper in "C&EN" (Feb 16,
> 2010):
> "The challenge now is to fish out molecules that may have some
> important early biochemical role".
>
> Would life be linked to a process of picking up elements out of the
> construction kit and combine them ?
> I defy anyone to answer that question.
>
> Now regarding distinction between diversity and complexity, I don't
> imagine that the complexity of terrestrial biochemical "space" is
> necessarily a result of reduction of (initial) diversity.
> I believe this can also most probably occur if a high diversity is
> maintained.
> In other words, should the high diversity of molecules (such as we
> found in Murchison) be also present on Earth at the time when the
> conditions were conductive to the expansion of life, this expansion
> would probably have occurred as readily as if that diversity was
> somewhat restricted (this is an hypothesis that I'd be glad if someone
> more expert than me could comment - but not necessarily confirm).
>
> To conclude, we give in our paper a little more detailed picture than
> what is summarized in one sentence of the abstract.
> The DIVERSITY of extraterrestrial organics was driven (but also
> possibly sometimes restricted) by "extreme" physical parameters such
> as "temperature", radiation, various alterations....leading to a
> selectivity of reaction pathways (entropy-driven continuous
> distribution of molecular compositions and structural characteristics
> of ABIOTIC syntheses).
> Such thermodynamic and kinetic constraints might deviate from
> terrestrial biogeochemistry, under our current mild conditions
> (oxygen, ambient temperature etc).
> In other words, these latter conditions could lead, from a restricted
> number of initial molecules (but not necessarily restricted!) to a
> high and EARTH-SPECIFIC COMPLEXITY, by inducing various favorable
> transformations.
>
> Just some thoughts from a non expert chemist. I encourage Phil
> Schmitt-Kopplin, who is reading us, to possibly add his own comments.
> I also stay flexible to any (constructive or destructive) remark from
> any of you.
>
> Matthias, I will forward you the full paper as attachment.
> Unfortunately, for the list, I have no link to provide. Those
> interested, feel fee to request a copy.
>
> Kind regards to all,
>
> Zelimir
>
> Oh, I almost forgot:
> YES, definitely Murchison smells (a quite strong smell, not really
> unpleasent, especially when the sample was sealed in some jar for
> years).
>
>
>
> Matthias B?rmann <majbaermann at web.de> a ??crit? :
>
>> Hello Zelimir & Murchisionados,
>>
>> highly interesting indeed: thanks so much for informing us about your
>> and your colleagues scientific work and giving us so the feeling of
>> being privileged enough to sit in the very first row.
>>
>> If I understand your approach correct, your non-targeted focus of
>> investigation leads directly to a highly diverse pattern.
>>
>> The last sentence of the abstract reads: "This molecular complexity,
>> which provides hints on heteroatoms chronological assembly, suggests
>> that the extraterrestrial chemodiversity is high compared to terrestrial
>> relevant biological- and biogeochemical-driven chemical space." The high
>> level of extraterrestrial chemodiversity vs. the less diverse
>> terrestrial "chemical space" - could that mean that development of life
>> could depend on a kind of reduction of diversity? Caused by selection (=
>> "targetting"?)? Life would be essentially linked to a process of picking
>> up elements out of the construction kit? But than it begins to play by
>> combining them? Wouldn't that point to the necessity to make a strong
>> distinction between diversity and complexity? Could that mean that the
>> complexity of terrestrial biological and biochemical "space" is a result
>> of reduction of (initial) diversity?
>>
>> Perhaps six (crazy) questions too much from a non-natural scientist ...
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Matthias B.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <Zelimir.Gabelica at uha.fr>
>> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 9:58 PM
>> Subject: [meteorite-list] organics in Muchison.....
>>
>>
>>
>> Darren, list,
>>
>>
>> The media info Darren is speaking about refers to the research we (a
>> group of scientists) are being conducting since several months on
>> Murchison, namely a non targeted analysis of its extraterrestrial
>> organic contents.
>>
>> In a post I sent by end of last September, I had notified the list of
>> that work by just mentioning the keywords "Murchison" and "organic
>> contant".
>>
>> The paper, that was submitted for publication in due time (right in
>> time for the 40th anniversary of Murchison fall), was just anounced
>> released out of press a couple of hours ago.
>>
>> Here is the reference: PNAS, 107 (7), 2763 -2768 (2010).
>>
>> Abstract can be read here:
>>
>> http://www.pnas.org/content/107/7/2763
>>
>>
>> More discussions are available through various media press comments
>> (easily found by Googling with keys: "Murchison, Phillippe
>> Schmitt-Kopplin").
>>
>> May I just insist that the incredible number of molecules we had found
>> originated from the fact that the screening was not targeted.
>>
>> Also we never claimed that any of the hundreds of thousands of
>> molecules we detected had a pre-biotic origin, something that seems to
>> provoke debate in the media.
>> Our work just shows there's no shortage of molecules on meteorites in
>> general, and in Murchison, taken as reference in particular, that
>> origin-of-life researchers could investigate...
>>
>> Those familtar with Ensisheim shows might remember that Philippe
>> (Phil) was our new enthroned Ensisheim meteorite guardian in 2008.
>>
>> Phil is the head of the lab in Neuherberg (Munich) where all the
>> measurements (combined FTICR-MS,NMR & GC) were run.
>> We all, co-authors, are deeply indebted to him for his discern and
>> faith in initiating that challenging research and for his expertise
>> that caused its success beyond any of our initial expectations.
>>
>> So far we have recorded tons of other data on "many more" other
>> meteorites. More exciting and weird results are coming continuously;
>> thay will be published in the months to come.
>>
>> My best wishes,
>>
>> Zelimir
>>
>>
>> Shawn Alan <photophlow at yahoo.com> a ??crit? :
>>
>>> Darren and List
>>>
>>> Thank you for the read up on Murchison meteorite on how scientist have
>>> identified over 14,000 compounds and counting. While we are on the
>>> topic of Murchison meteorite, I came across an article on line that
>>> points out these interesting facts and finds on the Murchison as quoted
>>> from the article as follows....
>>> "Presolar grains are the oldest materials in the solar system," says
>>> Philipp Heck of the University of Chicago.
>>> "The ages of the grains clearly indicate that they are older than the
>>> solar system."
>>> But just how old?
>>> Heck and his colleagues isolated 22 grains from the Murchison meteorite,
>>> which is well-known for the
>>> organic material it contains, and measured how long the grains spent
>>> in interstellar space before winding up
>>> in our nascent solar system. The implied grain ages, reported in a
>>> recent paper of the Astrophysical Journal,
>>> appear to support a hypothesis that our solar system formed after a
>>> smaller satellite galaxy crashed into the
>>> Milky Way around 6 billion years ago."......
>>>
>>> "From the isotope abundances, the researchers estimate that the majority
>>> of grains spent between 3
>>> and 200 million years in interstellar space before falling into our
>>> molecular cloud some 4.6 billion
>>> years ago."
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is the link to the article I found on line.
>>> http://www.astrobio.net/pdffiles/news_3202.pdf
>>>
>>> and if your up for a read, here is an article on the age of presolar
>>> SiC grains found in Murchison meteorite.
>>>
>>> http://presolar.wustl.edu/ref/Gyngard09b.pdf
>>>
>>> Enjoy
>>> Shawn Alan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [meteorite-list] Murchison-- chock full o' stuffDarren Garrison
>>> cynapse at charter.net
>>> Tue Feb 16 00:25:30 EST 2010
>>>
>>>
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>>> February 15, 2009
>>> Next message: [meteorite-list] West Texas Meteorite Hunt - February 15,
>>> 2009
>>> Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
>>>
>>> http://news.discovery.com/space/meteorite-crammed-with-millions-of-organic-compounds.html
>>>
>>> Meteorite Crammed with 'Millions' of Organic Compounds
>>>
>>> By Ian O'Neill | Mon Feb 15, 2010 04:52 PM ET
>>>
>>> A meteorite that hit the town of Murchison, Australia, hasn't quit
>>> giving up its
>>> secrets.
>>>
>>> The Murchison meteorite is one of the most studied space rocks because
>>> many
>>> pieces were recovered after it was seen breaking up as it fell through
>>> the
>>> atmosphere in 1969. Approximately 100 kg of the carbonaceous chondrite
>>> was
>>> recovered.
>>>
>>> Carbonaceous chondrites are extremely important to scientists as they
>>> were
>>> formed from material that existed in the solar system's planet-forming
>>> disk of
>>> gas and dust. They are, quite literally, time capsules holding onto a 4
>>> billion
>>> year old record of the birth of our solar system.
>>>
>>> In this case, the Murchison meteorite has given us another clue as to
>>> the
>>> abundance of organic chemicals that existed before the Earth had formed.
>>> In
>>> fact, this particular meteorite may have originated from material
>>> older than our
>>> sun.
>>>
>>> "We are really excited. When I first studied it and saw the complexity
>>> I was so
>>> amazed," said Dr Phillipe Schmitt-Kopplin, of the Institute for
>>> Ecological
>>> Chemistry in Neuherberg, Germany.
>>>
>>> "Meteorites are like some kind of fossil. When you try to understand
>>> them you
>>> are looking back in time."
>>>
>>> This new research made use of high resolution spectroscopic tools to
>>> identify
>>> the various compounds inside. Although this meteorite has provided
>>> scientists
>>> with vast amounts of information about specific carbon-based organics
>>> before,
>>> this was the first non-targeted study. In other words, the researchers
>>> weren't
>>> tracking down just one type of chemical, they did a broad analysis for
>>> all the
>>> chemicals it might contain.
>>>
>>> And what they found came as a shock, it appears that the primordial
>>> solar system
>>> probably had a higher chemical diversity than present-day Earth.
>>>
>>> In this study, 14,000 specific compounds including 70 amino acids were
>>> identified. But this number appears to be the tip of the iceberg; the
>>> meteorite
>>> probably contains millions of different organic compounds. More detailed
>>> analysis will now be carried out.
>>>
>>> But why is this important? To understand the diversity of organic
>>> chemicals that
>>> were floating around a primordial solar system will help us understand
>>> how life
>>> may have appeared on Earth. This particular chunk of carbonaceous
>>> chondrite
>>> drifted through the gas and dust of the early solar system, collecting
>>> all the
>>> basic organic chemistry from around that time, does that mean diverse
>>> organic
>>> chemistry is the "norm" for proto-planetary star systems?
>>>
>>> These organic compounds are known to exist on comets, asteroids and
>>> other
>>> planetary bodies, so what makes Earth the hothouse of life when
>>> everywhere else
>>> seems to be lifeless?
>>>
>>> If organic chemistry is ubiquitous, perhaps planning to "seed" young
>>> star
>>> systems with Earth-based life isn't such a good idea. The conditions
>>> for life
>>> may not be that rare after all.
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
Received on Wed 17 Feb 2010 05:18:30 PM PST