[meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list

From: Mark Bowling <minador_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 00:21:03 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <352212.61100.qm_at_web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Hey Mike,

Sorry to hear about the terrible problems you guys are going through.? I shouldn't have gotten nasty with you as well, so sorry about that.? Best wishes from Tucson (Vail).

Mark Bowling



----- Original Message ----
From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
To: Robert Ward <ironfromthesky.com at gmail.com>
Cc: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 7:12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Firearms related posts on a meteorite list

Hi Folks,

This is my last post on this subject - I promise.

This train wreck of negativity over the gun photo has gone too far.? I
played a role in that, and for that I apologize.

There are deep divisions in this country that have been encouraged by
those who will profit from keeping the populace divided.? This country
is the most polarized that I have ever seen, and people who would
normally get along fine are at each other's throats at the drop of a
dime.? That is what is fueling a sizeable portion of the hostility
going on right now, it's not just the guns.? The gun provided a spark
that lit the pool of gasoline that was already there.? I posted some
things that I should not have.? I have strong beliefs and those burst
forth in a couple of frustrated posts that were directed more at an
idea than a person or a gun.

Robert Ward, I apologize for calling you "son" and speaking in a
condescending fashion.? I don't know you and I was lashing out at
something you represent (in my mind) and not you.? I grew up in the
deep south, surrounded by "rednecks".? My father was a redneck.? I
know that calling another man "son" is like a challenge to one's
manhood and it is condescending.? I respect your contributions to
meteoritics and I respect your meteorite hunting skills.? You are a
very underrated hunter and a fair dealer.? I bought a Brenham thin
slice from you a while back on eBay and it is still one of my favorite
pieces.? I have no beef with you personally, unless this episode
created one, which would be regrettable.

For those who may care, here is why I lashed out - my wife is very
sick with chronic health conditions.? I will not go into all of the
long details, but believe me when I say it has been the most difficult
period of our lives.? I almost lost her and sitting in ICU watching
your soulmate fight for life will make a man do some long and hard
thinking.? We don't have health insurance and cannot afford health
insurance because her condition is pre-existing and no insurance
company will touch her with a 10-foot pole, or if they will, the
premiums are so astronomical that they are impossible.? We have never
taken a dime in public assistance and the reason we had no insurance
when her condition arose, is because we both quit full-time management
jobs (and good insurance) to be caregivers for her elderly father who
has Alzheimers - something we did out of love to keep him from going
into a nursing home.? (a fate that a highly-decorated WWII veteran
does not deserve)? So we lost our insurance while we were doing the
right thing - and then my wife got sick.? Where is this going?? All of
the people who are erecting roadblocks to my wife getting affordable
insurance (and thus access to decent healthcare that isn't an
emergency room last resort) are people from the
right/conservative/republican side of the political and social
spectrum.? So, I am developing a big chip on my shoulder towards the
political right because they are, in essence, prolonging my wife's
suffering by preventing meaningful healthcare reform.? And all of the
arguments against it center around money - which doesn't mean a darn
thing to me if I lose my wife and soulmate.? All of the money in the
world won't bring her back if she dies for lack of medical care.
There are other layers to this situation, but I think this explains
the bulk of my frustration.? If you are blessed with good health and
your loved ones are blessed with good health - then wake up each day
be thankful for it - because it is truly a blessing and it can
suddenly be revoked without warning or reason.? This is truly the most
difficult part of my life and my wife's life and it is very
frustrating to be denied medical? care because we lack money and
insurance - and we fall between the cracks in the system.? It is a
nightmare that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

So, when I see/hear/read people from the right-side of the political
spectrum, a surge of hostility, resentment, and frustration wells up
in me. (which is not a good thing, I know).? After I shot my mouth
off, I got a flood replies (some public, some private) and I latched
onto your's because it was the first one I clicked on that disagreed
with me.? Then I shot my mouth off again, and the cycle continued.
And now it has become a major distraction to the List and it has
fostered division in the meteorite circles.? That was not my intent,
but it was clearly the result of my words and I should have foresaw
that.

To Michael Johnson - I used the same poor judgement that I accused you
of - by posting my frustrations to the List.? I should have known it
would stir the pot and fan the flames.? I honestly don't believe you
"trolled" the List with your posting.? It's not a photo I would have
selected to post, but that doesn't mean you exercised poor judgement,
just because I didn't agree with it.

To the pro-gun people - I am one of you.? I grew up with guns in a
good ole boy family of Arkansas, Mississippi, and Missouri cotton
farmers.? I strongly believe in the 2nd amendment of the US
Constitution.? I used to collect guns and I have owned more than I can
count.? I currently own two - a sidearm and a shotgun.? For a while I
reloaded my own ammo.? I also strongly believe that guns should be
treated with the utmost respect and that gun owners should be more
considerate of others who are wary of what guns represent to them.
Some people are terrified of guns.? Some people have had negative
experiences with them.? Some people come from cultures where guns are
viewed in a very different light.? As a gun owner, I would never
display, carry or brandish my firearm in front of mixed company or
strangers.? As a cigar smoker, I take my cigar outside to enjoy a
smoke, because I respect the rights of others not to suffer my toxic
smoke.? I pick up or dispose of the ashes and the butt.? It's not a
matter of being pro-gun, pro-tobacco, or anti-gun, anti-tobacco - it's
a matter of awareness and consideration for other people - people who
may be good decent nice persons, but happen to disagree with me
politicially or socially.? This is a global meteorite List with
members from a wide range of cultures, all brought together by a
common love of space rocks.? It is entirely predictable that anything
that is vaguely political or controversial is surely going to offend
someone in a global forum.? It doesn't mean we should be bland,
vanilla and "PC", it means we should use our opportunities to joke
around carefully.? In a perfect world, it wouldn't be that way.? But,
on any unmoderated internet list/forum, one must be extra careful in
order to maintain decorum.? I don't know Michael Johnson personally,
but I know enough that I was surprised by his selection of the photo,
because I knew "brown-chondrite" was going to hit the fan because of
it.

We all (those on all sides of the political spectrum) just want to
raise good kids in a good and decent world and have the freedom to
make our own decisions and choose our paths in life.? We all agree on
that.? But to many people, guns are a symbol that represent those
things being torn away.? And to many others, guns represent the
primary defense against those things being torn away.? As long as we
are in mixed company (which is exactly what this List is), then we
should exercise a bit of "PC", just to be on the safe side and prevent
flareups like this.? This necessity is a part of the global culture
that the internet is, and it should be a default consideration given
to others.

I failed to exercise that consideration and I reacted negatively,
which injected negativity into the situation and made matters worse.
I have my beliefs that are strong and have nothing to do with
meteorites - I should keep those in private and off the List.

I love meteorites - more than rationally so.? I don't want to
contribute negativity to meteorites in any way.? So I regret that and
apologize for it.? I have done this in the past.? I hope not to do it
again in the future.

So there you have it - my apology and concession rant.? I hope it is
more positive in effect that my previous two posts.? And I hope the
next posts are about meteorites.

Best regards and happy huntings,

MikeG







On 2/4/10, Robert Ward <ironfromthesky.com at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey meteoritekid, may I suggest that you "unplug" for a while, go
> outside, and get some real world experience, perhaps then you can base
> your arguments off something more substantial than than charts,
> graphs, and statistics put together by some professor in a office
> somewhere that you have never met. You said "the redneck crap" "is a
> culture that people tend to view negatively", glad to know how you
> feel about my culture and that you view people like me as second rate
> citizens, that is not very tolerant for such a leftist. You must live
> in a scary world.
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Jason Utas <meteoritekid at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello Mike, Robert, All,
>>
>>> Mike G. I would like to point out that Michael Johnson has has made a
>>> huge impact on this community, he tries his best to represent people
>>> that are from all walks of life in the meteorite world, for you to
>>> target him as using "poor judgement" is insulting, that is just YOUR
>>> opinion, not fact as stated by you.
>>
>> And he's fully entitled to that opinion.? And sometimes people who are
>> in positions of power and who have done good things make mistakes.? It
>> happens.? Happened.
>>
>>> I am not your "son" and please
>>> correct me if I am wrong, but I don't recall seeing you at any state
>>> shoots, ranges, or having read your scores, or article's in any
>>> firearms publications. Are you a gunsmith? Did you ever shoot
>>> professionally? Do you have a piece of paper on the wall that says you
>>> know what you are talking about?
>>
>> It doesn't take firing a gun, making a gun, or being trained to use a
>> gun to know more about statistics and what they say about
>> gun ownership.? That's like saying a pyro should be well-versed in
>> fire safety and know that starting fires is dangerous, and probably
>> shouldn't be done.
>>
>>> You say that it is? incorrect to
>>> state that "it is people, not guns that kill" Show me one case of a
>>> firearm autonomously 'jumping up and killing someone'. A person is
>>> involved 100% percent of the time.
>>
>> And a gun is involved in 100% of firearm deaths.? And there are a lot
>> of those.
>>
>>> toting around grandpa's squirrel
>>> gun, and telling stories at your local bar does not mean you know
>>> it all, but it is a good indicator of your mindset. Robert.
>>
>> Sorry, I'm late for the lesbian tree-hugger benefit.? Gotta get there
>> before the sun goes down.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks
>>> <meteoritemike at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Robert and List,
>>>>
>>>> Ok everyone, this is getting tiresome.
>>>>
>>>> We are all overlooking the obvious - it was poor judgement on Michael
>>>> Johnson's part to post that photo.? Period.? Regardless of one's views
>>>> on guns, this List is global and that photo was bound to stir up
>>>> trouble - it doesn't take a psychic or mind reader to know that.
>>>> Posting that photo was essentially a troll - perhaps not intentional,
>>>> but the effect was the same.
>>>>
>>>> It should be common sense not to post controversial material on a public
>>>> list.
>>>>
>>>> You say you are a "expert in the gun field" - Listen son, I was toting
>>>> around guns before you were a twinkle in your daddy's eye.? There is
>>>> nothing you can tell me about guns that I don't already know and I
>>>> have forgotten more about guns than you will ever hope to know.? So go
>>>> take your passionate "it's people not guns that kill" defense and call
>>>> it in to your favorite right-wing AM-radio talk show - I'm sure you'll
>>>> have a eager audience of Rush Limbaugh fans to agree with you.
>>>>
>>>> This is not a matter of pushing delete when you see something you
>>>> don't like - it's called "ROCKS FROM SPACE PICTURE OF THE DAY" - not
>>>> "POINTING GUNS AT METEORITE PEOPLE PICTURE OF THE DAY".? Can you not
>>>> see that the photo could have been completely unexpected to many and
>>>> they were caught off-guard by it?
>>>>
>>>> It was fine to stage to photo, it was perfectly good to have fun, it
>>>> was fine to share the photo with friends.? It was poor judgement to
>>>> post that photo to the Meteorite List.
>>>>
>>>> Now excuse me, I have to go host a benefit for retired lesbian tree
>>>> huggers at my solar-energy-powered gay bar.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards and happy hunting,
>>>>
>>>> MikeG
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/3/10, Robert Ward <ironfromthesky.com at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I spent three years training at the finest firearms institution on the
>>>>> planet learning about every aspect of the industry, and even designing
>>>>> and manufacturing my own firearms models, I am an expert in the field,
>>>>> and I assure you they are not "killing tools" and "assault rifles"
>>>>> when they leave the factory. They are pieces of metal and plastic,
>>>>> People do the killing, guns are inanimate objects. So Mr. G, I have
>>>>> been involved with firearms my entire life, ask my friends if they
>>>>> think I am a morbid person. You say we should not offend our European
>>>>> friends with our rights and traditions? Growing up I spent my summers
>>>>> in Africa, and I saw things that offended my that are far to morbid to
>>>>> mention here, I did not offend them by sharing my thoughts of these
>>>>> customs, I looked the other way and left, if that pic offends you push
>>>>> delete. I noticed a post that mentioned a statistic from the FBI
>>>>> website, 9,369 firearms related murders in the U.S. in 2002, another
>>>>> statistic to compare this to is the great genocide in Rwanda, 800,000
>>>>> murdered with machete's. I assure you, in the right hands some sharp
>>>>> Chinga, or Seymchan slices that are for sale in several rooms in
>>>>> Tucson could dispatch one's life just as fast as a firearm. Peter
>>>>> Davidson, those who know me would probably agree that I am someone
>>>>> that could be pigeon holed into some Hick-Redneck category, Peter, I
>>>>> am not offended by your prejudice, I am proud of my heritage growing
>>>>> up on farms and ranches, oh yeah, I am a NRA life member too. I trust
>>>>> that all of you that are so offended by this pic do not subscribe to
>>>>> cable, or satellite television services, nor do you attend movies with
>>>>> "morbid guns" in them. Grow up, just click delete, and spend this much
>>>>> time finding some useful input for the METEORITE LIST. Maybe I will
>>>>> post a pic of my cats high up on one of my collection pieces so the
>>>>> PETA people can have there turn. Robert Ward
>>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>> Visit the Archives at
>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
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>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Mike Gilmer
>>>> http://www.galactic-stone.com
>>>> http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________
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>>
> ______________________________________________
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-- 
------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Gilmer
http://www.galactic-stone.com
http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
------------------------------------------------------------
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Received on Fri 05 Feb 2010 03:21:03 AM PST