[meteorite-list] [meteorite-list?????] [IMCA] Update 2 - Wilbur Wash (correction)
From: Jason Utas <meteoritekid_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 17:46:30 -0800 Message-ID: <AANLkTin3U-=rwKTimyDd2ZBM0TaVCQT46sWQJEhNzJQ8_at_mail.gmail.com> Greg, 1) I'm not a member of the IMCA by choice 2) I, in theory, cannot see IMCA emails 3) The message I responded to was, itself, posted to the list (it was part of the discussion "there") I suppose there's something else you can get angry at Ted for, now. Regards, Jason On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Greg Catterton <star_wars_collector at yahoo.com> wrote: > Why was this IMCA email taken to the meteorite list? Was this not a private IMCA list discussion? > Why did you take this to the Metlist when it was never part of discussion on there? > > Greg Catterton > www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com > IMCA member 4682 > On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites > On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites > > > --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jason Utas <meteoritekid at gmail.com> wrote: > >> From: Jason Utas <meteoritekid at gmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Update 2 - Wilbur Wash (correction) >> To: "Meteorite-list" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> >> Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 7:28 PM >> Hello All, >> I'd like to reply to a few of the points made in the below >> messages; >> while I would prefer to stay out of the mechanics of the >> classification/submission part of it, several other points >> were made >> that apply to the majority of people currently getting >> specimens >> analyzed and named that should be addressed. >> >> Anne said: >> >>> The lack of a proper find location is not >> enough to >> >>> prevent a meteorite from being classified. >> ?All the >> >>> SAHXXXXX meteorites, from the Labennes, lack >> complete >> >>> coordinates and they have been classified and >> published. >> >> The Labennes promised to release their data.? Using >> this as a >> justification for a statement like "meteorites don't need >> coordinates >> in order to become official" doesn't make sense.? No >> one knew ahead of >> time that the Labennes would lie.? They did not keep >> their word. >> In light of that fact alone, I would suggest that the >> meteorites be >> renamed as NWA, since all we know is that they came from >> somewhere in >> North (West?) Africa.? But changing the nomenclature >> of meteorites >> that have already been published in numerous papers and >> books is not >> usually done. >> Nowadays, everyone knows that "Sahara XXxxx" is just >> another name for >> a homeless African meteorite, and that's what the name has >> come to >> represent.? Is it ideal?? No.? Is it worth >> changing the accepted names >> of hundreds of meteorites just because their names don't >> fit to an >> ideal nomenclature system?? Maybe.? That's not my >> call, though.? And >> it's not a clear-cut issue. >> >> G. Catterton said: >> >>> To use the claim that it was to keep the >> location >> >>> secret is not a valid excuse, Jack and >> Whetstone clearly >> >>> showed that location is not needed to get >> approval. >> >> We've gone over this on the list countless times.? The >> coordinates for >> Whetstone Mountains are on file with the nomenclature >> committee.? The >> information is there, but has not yet been made public. >> >> So the only recent case in which meteorites have been >> submitted and >> made official is with the 'Sahara XXxxx' stones, and that's >> because a >> 'reputable dealer' did not keep his word.? And it's a >> tough issue, >> because I would trust the Labennes in a trade or purchase >> -- the name >> hasn't been sullied like those of...a few others on this >> list. >> >> And why is that?? Probably because withholding >> promised find >> information isn't viewed as a transgression comparable with >> something >> like switching an NWA L3 with Zulu Queen, or something >> along those >> lines. >> >> And yet, when you look at the difference between an NWA L3 >> and Zulu >> Queen, the only differentiating factor is provenance. >> Where the stone >> came from, how much was found, etc.? Kind of like the >> difference >> between a named stone in general versus a 'Sahara XXxxx' or >> NWA stone. >> >> But people know what they're getting when they buy 'Sahara >> XXxxx' >> stones.? I don't know if the Labennes will ever >> release their data, >> but I very much doubt that they will, ever.? I'd like >> to be pleasantly >> surprised in the near future, but it's probably not going >> to happen. >> -Why would they? >> >> [Cue the long reply from M***** about how coordinates are >> all >> overrated and irrelevant...if it happens, I'll step out of >> this as >> well.? Enough of that.] >> >> The last point I'd like to make addresses the nature of our >> little >> meteorite market and how it interacts with the scientific >> sphere. >> >> We collectors and dealers seem to feel *entitled* to the >> services of >> the people working in the field of meteoritics.? It's >> one thing to >> criticize someone who's being lazy and clumsy, losing >> samples left and >> right.? It's another thing entirely to jump on the >> back of researchers >> who are simultaneously trying to do real scientific >> research -- and >> analyze hundreds, if not thousands, of stones for folks >> like us on the >> side.? I can understand the indignation of someone who >> has a sample go >> missing -- it's happened to me as well. >> >> But what I don't do is get angry at the person who has >> analyzed ten or >> twenty or a hundred meteorites for me, and who happens to >> misplace a >> sample or two.? Especially if it's a common NWA >> chondrite.? I haven't >> heard of any rare material going missing, but...things >> rarely get >> truly lost. >> >> The best way to go about things is to remember that these >> scientists >> are doing you an expensive service that they are not >> obligated to do. >> Be thankful that they do as good a job as they do. >> >> The reason we have so many meteorites available and >> classified today >> is because of them, and it's because of them that many >> people on this >> list have been able to literally pay their bills.? In >> many cases, >> they're not getting paid anything extra to do that work for >> *you (and >> me).* >> >> So it can be a pretty thankless job. >> >> But, if Eric Twelker is right, and there is more than meets >> the >> eye...and someone has been consistently doing a shoddy job >> of keeping >> records, samples, and submissions up to date, then it seems >> to me that >> such a person should be cut from the path to a meteorite's >> approval. >> >> Transparency with regards to the issue would be nice as >> well.? Money's >> at stake, after all. >> >> If anyone has any more questions about Wilbur Wash, I'd be >> more than >> willing to supply the information I have, though it seems >> as though >> some of you IMCA folk did a better job of tracking down the >> stone's >> analytical history than I was able to. >> >> Regards, >> Jason >> >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Ted Bunch <tbear1 at cableone.net> >> wrote: >> > Dear Greg and Eric--Your stones were classified and >> submitted and we have >> > discussed this problem. Greg your stone is NWA 5511; >> Eric, your stones are >> > NWA 5440 and 5441, this you already know. These are >> part of MIA III or >> > missing in action. As an example of the problems >> classifiers have had and to >> > some degree still have, I give below the MIA II list >> (names of individuals >> > are deleted). Most of these were finally cleaned up by >> the present Editor, >> > Mike Weisberg, whose efforts in this matter are >> greatly appreciated. With >> > respect to the N. American classifications, those in >> question, in addition >> > to at least 10 others, were sent off to the Editor in >> charge a long time >> > ago. Inquires were made several times with no >> response. After significant >> > time has pasted, I no longer inquire or re-submit. >> > >> > We do not get paid for classifications, any monies >> received go to the >> > University for instrument time. You, Greg and Eric, >> were never charged. I do >> > not submit an invoice until official approvals are >> received. The Editor, >> > members of the NOM COM, and most classifiers that I >> know do not receive >> > compensation either. We have rather thankless jobs and >> put up with >> > inefficiencies and abuses. >> > >> > Because of these problems, we posted on our NAU web >> site that we do not >> > classify any more for the general public. ?Many of >> you, >> > ?make money from classifier's efforts, It costs me >> about $3K per year to >> > classify meteorites. >> > >> > >> >> >> >> November 12, 2008 >> > >> >> >> >> Some ?missing? submissions that have occurred >> over the last couple of >> >> years and are still MIA and I am NOT HAPPY! I have >> addressed these issues >> >> several times. >> >> >> >> 1. Originally submitted in Nov. 2006, then again >> in Jan. 2007: NWA 2682, >> >> 2683, 2684, ?2685, 2686, 2687, 2688, 2689, 2691, >> 2692, 2693, 2694, 2695, >> >> 2696, 2095. Our original submission in Nov. was >> not put into the ?proper? >> >> format that was posted on Oct. 26. >> >> >> >> 2. April 2007 submissions: NWA 4650 through NWA >> 4664 >> >> >> >> 3. Others: NWA 4551, 4541, 4284, 4448, 4544, 4545, >> 4549. 4409, 4410, 4411, >> >> 4412, >> >> ? ?4413, 4414, 4284, 2909. >> >> >> >> 5. Submitted in Nov. 2006, again in Jan. 2007: >> Dhofar 1127, 1128, 1130, >> >> ? ?1131, 1136, 1139, 1144, 1148, 1154, 1156, >> 1168, 1170, 1176, 1178, 1181, >> >> 1226, 1232, >> >> ? ?1243, 1250, 1251, 1261, 1272, 1429, 1430, >> 1431. 1432. ?Same as for #1. >> >> Now official. >> >> >> >> 6. And most amazing of all ? I submitted an >> EXCEL sheet of those listed >> >> below, some are on Jeff?s web site (blue), >> > >> > ?others are not (red) and only some are on the >> tracking list (blue). >> >> >> >> ? ? ? ?Jeff?s & tracking sites: NWA >> 4429, 4431, 4432, 4433, 4434, 4436, >> >> 4437, 4440, ? ?4443. >> >> >> >> ? ? ? ?Missing everywhere: NWA 4430, 4435, >> 4438, 4439, 4441, 4442, 4444, >> >> ? ? ? ?4445, 4446. >> >> >> >> 7. One lunar, Jiddat al Harasis (#1004) ? now >> official as 348. >> >> >> >> 8. And, 12 submitted for N. America a couple of >> years ago and one NEA >> >> submitted long ago before your tenure. >> >> >> >> These were sent directly to either BLANK. BLANK or >> to you at the ?and >> >> copied to at least one other. >> > >> > The N. American items went to BLANK, several times. >> >> >> >> Ted >> > >> >> >> > Eric and Greg, if you want to continue discussion >> about your stones, please >> > do it off line. I have seen enough pissing contests on >> the LIST and do not >> > want to be part of one. My apology to you and others >> who are in a >> > "neglected" position, we are not perfect and have made >> mistakes, but I do >> > not apologize for issues out of my control. FYI, I >> have prepared another MIA >> > list and will send it to Mike after critical >> classifications for LPSC >> > abstracts have been handled by Mike and the NOM COM, >> i. e., after 1-10-11. >> > These classifications have priority over the general >> public requests at this >> > time and I do not want to clog up Mike any more than >> he already is. >> > >> > You might inquire to Tony Irving, Allan Rubin, Randy >> Korotev, among other >> > classifiers, about problems they had/have. The system >> is not perfect and >> > improvements have been made, more should and can be >> made. >> > >> > Ted Bunch >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > On 12/19/10 10:47 AM, Greg Catterton wrote: >> >> >> >> Seeing as how this was mentioned... Ted has also >> lost 2 samples of mine. >> >> A very unusual black chondrite? and another LL5/6 >> Polymict breccia. >> >> Its been over 18 months. I was told the thin >> sections were lost... I know >> >> of two others who have had issues with him losing >> material. I too have had >> >> little or no email replies. >> >> >> >> Greg Catterton >> >> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com >> >> IMCA member 4682 >> >> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites >> >> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Eric Twelker<twelker at alaska.net> >> ?wrote: >> >> ?551 >> >>> >> >>> From: Eric Twelker<twelker at alaska.net> >> >>> Subject: Re: [IMCA] Update 2 - Wilbur Wash >> (correction) >> >>> To: impactika at aol.com >> >>> Cc: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com, >> imca at imcamail.de >> >>> Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 12:41 PM >> >>> Hi IMCA >> >>> >> >>> ? ? This reply will divert a bit from the >> >>> Wilber Wash issue, but I think it is related. >> ?Lamesa, >> >>> Tahoka, and Wellman (f) have all been >> mentioned in this >> >>> thread and their lack of publication may be >> related to >> >>> Wilbur Wash. ?A large number of meteorites >> (including >> >>> the prior three) that were classified by Ted >> Bunch have >> >>> "gone missing." ?This includes some of mine >> and a much >> >>> larger number of other meteorites--perhaps >> approaching a >> >>> hundred--from other dealers. ?The inclination >> in the >> >>> dealer community has been to blame Ted Bunch. >> ?Because >> >>> Ted has been mostly unresponsive or erratic in >> replies to >> >>> inquiries, he seems a likely party to blame. >> >>> >> >>> ? ? That said, McCartney did manage to get >> >>> one response out of Ted. ?He blamed a >> researcher from >> >>> the University of New Mexico that used to sit >> on >> >>> NomCom. ?I asked Jeff Grossman about the >> accusation, >> >>> but he declined to answer. ?Something's going >> on here >> >>> and some people know about it but are >> unwilling to >> >>> share. ?Apparently a large number of >> classifications >> >>> and samples have been lost and this fact is >> being swept >> >>> under the rug or worse. ?It doesn't seem that >> anything >> >>> is being done. ?In the meantime collectors >> and others >> >>> are incorporating pieces into their >> collections. ?I >> >>> will add that this is the IMCA's business as >> at least some >> >>> of the people involved are IMCA members and >> may be acting in >> >>> ways that are questionable. >> >>> >> >>> ? ? ?Eric Twelker >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Dec 18, 2010, at 10:54 PM, impactika at aol.com >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> I agree. >> >>>> >> >>>> The lack of a proper find location is not >> enough to >> >>> >> >>> prevent a meteorite from being classified. >> ?All the >> >>> SAHXXXXX meteorites, from the Labennes, lack >> complete >> >>> coordinates and they have been classified and >> published. >> >>>> >> >>>> So, what else? >> >>>> The expert who did the classification, Dr. >> Karner, >> >>> >> >>> knows his job, he is not new at this and the >> Un. of New >> >>> Mexico has done classification for a very long >> time, so I >> >>> would not expect problems with the >> classification process >> >>> itself. >> >>>> >> >>>> So what else? >> >>>> Anne Black >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: Greg Catterton<star_wars_collector at yahoo.com> >> >>>> To: IMCA Mail List<imca at imcamail.de> >> >>>> Sent: Sat, Dec 18, 2010 8:38 am >> >>>> Subject: Re: [IMCA] Update 2 - Wilbur >> Wash >> >>> >> >>> (correction) >> >>>> >> >>>> That does not sound too proper, or correct >> from my >> >>> >> >>> experience and sounds like the "story" >> provided by Joe about >> >>> his Mifflin find (which the facts there were >> not accurate >> >>> also) >> >>>> >> >>>> While it may just be a name, I dont >> personally like >> >>> >> >>> the fact that data was lied about or corrupted >> by the >> >>> finder. To use the claim that it was to keep >> the location >> >>> secret is not a valid excuse, Jack and >> Whetstone clearly >> >>> showed that location is not needed to get >> approval. There is >> >>> no ?rule concerning "No exact location, no >> >>> classification" that I have been made aware of >> - again, see >> >>> Whetstone as the location has still not been >> made available >> >>> and its official. >> >>>> >> >>>> Most likely, the type deposit was not >> provided >> >>> >> >>> therefor the material remains unofficial. >> >>>> >> >>>> Just my thoughts and opinions from my >> experience with >> >>> >> >>> testing and classification... for the record, >> I had NWA 5799 >> >>> tested, approved and published in less then 4 >> months and >> >>> know of many others whos material did not take >> the time >> >>> this, Tahoka or Zunhua has taken. >> >>>> >> >>>> Perhaps there is more going on, but to get >> an official >> >>> >> >>> name, its not really that hard - even if it is >> just >> >>> provisional. >> >>>> >> >>>> Hope everyone is doing well! >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Greg Catterton >> >>>> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com >> >>>> IMCA member 4682 >> >>>> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites >> >>>> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites >> >>>> >> >>>> --- On Sat, 12/18/10, Davio L. >> Ribeca<fishsealevel at comcast.net> >> >>> >> >>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> From: Davio L. Ribeca<fishsealevel at comcast.net> >> >>>> Subject: [IMCA] Update 2 - Wilbur Wash >> (correction) >> >>>> To: "IMCA Mail List"<imca at imcamail.de> >> >>>> Date: Saturday, December 18, 2010, 6:18 >> AM >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> *Posted w/ permission >> >>>> >> >>>> Hi Anne, >> >>>> That's pretty much all that I know. I can >> tell you >> >>> >> >>> that after the analysis the meteorite laid >> around for a long >> >>> while because of personnel changes at the >> University. Also, >> >>> Wilbur Wash was first name given because the >> discoverer did >> >>> not want to reveal the exact location of the >> find. It took >> >>> some time (after the discoverer thoroughly >> searched the true >> >>> location area) before the true find location >> (ranchland in >> >>> Lochiel) was given to the University. No exact >> location, no >> >>> classification procedures is the rule, I >> guess. The exact >> >>> coordinates were eventually given to the >> University. >> >>>> >> >>>> The return of the paper work to the >> University, and >> >>> >> >>> whatever else the University sends to the name >> givers >> >>> (naming committee), and the new name may >> occur >> >>> simultaneously, I don't know. Anyway, I'm >> somewhat satisfied >> >>> with the update. I'll keep my eyes wide open >> to see if all >> >>> this comes to pass. I plan on contacting Dr. >> Karner after >> >>> the holidays to secure more information. I'm >> an old retired >> >>> mathematics/science admin. educator, maybe >> he'll take the >> >>> time to help me. The finder is Carl Esparza, >> who was very >> >>> helpful and kind. He sold the meteorite main >> mass to Michael >> >>> Cottingham. The main mass now resides with a >> person named >> >>> Jason Utas, who I also plan on contacting. If >> you find out >> >>> more please share. This was an interesting >> investigation. >> >>>> >> >>>> Thank you for all your help and concern. >> I'm hoping my >> >>> >> >>> wife, Frances, and I can meet you in person >> someday, soon. >> >>>> >> >>>> Ciao, >> >>>> Davio R. >> >>>> IMCA Member 4050 >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> IMCA mailing list >> >>>> IMCA at imcamail.de >> >>>> http://lists.imcamail.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/imca >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> IMCA mailing list >> >>>> >> >>>> IMCA at imcamail.de >> >>>> http://lists.imcamail.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/imca >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> IMCA mailing list >> >>>> IMCA at imcamail.de >> >>>> http://lists.imcamail.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/imca >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> IMCA mailing list >> >> IMCA at imcamail.de >> >> http://lists.imcamail.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/imca >> >> >> > ______________________________________________ >> > Visit the Archives at >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > >> ______________________________________________ >> Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > > > Received on Sun 19 Dec 2010 08:46:30 PM PST |
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