[meteorite-list] Gebel Kamil question

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:06:32 +0200
Message-ID: <004601cb490d$55cfdf00$016f9d00$_at_de>

Hi Ron,

>May we have a discussion here?

I don't know, whether that would make sense.
Such discussions and the laws debate in general, including the media reports
suffer always from the lack of substance.
Because possible legal restrictions, or whether there are some or not,
are given mostly by sole hearsay, rumors and assumptions.

I mean, you see it best with the Schmitt, McEwen, Schmitt & Co.
Barristers-Paper about meteorite laws,
where they seriously claimed that all meteorites would be covered as movable
heritage by the 1970 UNESCO convention!
And who are parroted since even by meteorite people in prominent positions
with utter conviction,
cause they are obviously either to lazy or intellectually not able to read
the very simple text of the convention by themselves,
which tells unmistakably, when an object is covered by the convention.
(Ratification --> Compiling of a n a t i o n a l list of categories of
objects of national heritage ---> meteorites listed in that national list.
Amen.)

See, even that guy from UNESCO, who was quoted in the Newscientists article
about Gebel Kamil,
what was his name, Planche? - made there that statement, which is verifiably
wrong, cause he doesn't seems to know the wordings of the convention.

That only as most blatant example.

As long as the wordings, the very text of the laws are unknown,
such discussions are vain in my opinion.

>who was aware of this would ethically want to buy

And, Ron, I think we always have to discern.
Between laws and ethics.

Because laws can be immoral and unethical.

Just take the topic dispossession and/or compulsory sale,
like some of the meteorite laws dictate. Like for instance, let's say in
parts auf Australia,
where, if a meteorite from space, an ownerless object therefore, if it falls
on your very head, when you're standing on your own land and property, you
are forced to give it to the state.
That is certainly no ethical law.

We here in Germany learned it the very hard way, that if a group of a few
people decides, that they want to have a category of objects and that the
citizens have to deliver these objects to them, losing their ownership,
that such laws are highly unethical. We had such occurrences under the
fascism and then in the East under the communism.
And till today after 70 years the state is occupied with restoring the
ownership of property, which then was dispossessed based on such laws. (Btw.
that was also the reason why Germany tried to chicken out for almost 40
years to set up its national list of heritage, like the 1970er convention
stipulates).

And in fact such laws can be even illegal by themselves.
In constitutional states, rule of law, such laws can be challenged. To be
proven whether they are conform with the constitution and whether they are
valid at all.
In several countries I'd have my doubts, that they are.
That meteorite laws aren't challenged is probably, because meteorites in
general are such a whack and rare stuff, that nearly nobody is interested
in, neither in possible laws about them.

Now with Egypt, I've no idea, what for laws do exist or not,
I know only, that Egypt is the only desert country, which didn't profit from
the Sahara-Boom,
as it has even less published meteorites than small and humid Germany(!!!!),
neither had I personally ever heard, that there is any form of meteorite
research or any institutional meteorite collection,
but I think, as it's not about only a meteorite, but a pretty crater, maybe
it should be protected as a natural monument or smth like that..
I stay out from that Egypt thing...don't know enough about it, to discuss.

Wanted only to say, for a meaningful discussion about laws, the existing
laws with their texts must be on the table
and secondly
that ethics and laws can be sometimes two very different animals.

Best!
Martin


-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von R N
Hartman
Gesendet: Dienstag, 31. August 2010 09:09
An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Gebel Kamil question

Good morning all:

In reference to all the posts and interests regarding Gebel Kamio, it is my
understanding that only 20 kilo of Gebel Kamil was approved for
removal from the crater for scientific purposes by the research team that
explored the crater, and that a quantity was later removed by an
unauthorized person who illegally removed meteorites without the Egyptian
government's permission, and that no export documents were ever approved for
any others by the government. If this is true, then I would like to think
no reputable dealer who was aware of this would ethically want to buy and
sell this material, (I should like to believe so!). Are these facts indeed
true or has
something changed that I have not heard about?? I see Gebel Kamil
saturating Ebay and I'm wondering whether the Egyptian government is now
permitting collecting or whether additional material is now being allowed
out, and what about export papers? Having spent some time in Egypt I know
that because of the countries rich abundance of historical artifacts of all
kinds including things that can sometimes be found just by kicking the sand,
the government has a blanket policy regarding anything that one may want to
remove from the country, and the policy is NO, whether specifics are stated
or not. Maybe some dealer has traded some of his exotic meteorites or a
camel or two for a bucket full of GK. I don't know. May we have a
discussion here? I think some clarification and update would be
of interest. Someone know something??

Thank You,
Ron Hartman


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Received on Tue 31 Aug 2010 09:06:32 AM PDT