[meteorite-list] Secret Find/Fall CoordinatesandLegitimacy-Someone help me understand this.

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:42:27 +0100
Message-ID: <001001ca57c3$b9e4cfa0$07b22959_at_name86d88d87e2>

Hmm, Chris,

the most prominent/historical work to mention would be that one about
Sikhote-Alin...
And at least with observed falls, it was already standard in 19th century,
to map strewnfields and -ellipses.

>to meteorite collectors, hunters, and dealers. But as a scientist, I mainly
>want a few grams accessible for analysis.

See! And that's exactly why we need coordinates, to find as much material as
possible - that you and other scientists will get a sample at all,
seen from a very practical point of view.

Take the lunars e.g. - on the lunar meteorites are working dozens of labs,
hundreds of scientists and students.
Coordinates create higher tkws.
Imagine, what if a university would have to pay 200,000$ a gram like in the
90ies or 25,000$ like still 8-9 years ago for a lunar.
Most couldn't afford that, most couldn't work on the stuff.

Very practical we see it with our work, several of our recoveries from NWA
were so low in tkw, but so important and unique, that so many institutes
wanted to work on them, that we couldn't satisfy all requests, because there
was much to less material.
(Just right now we have to contact the institutes again firstly
with a new find, cause if we would introduce it to the collectors,
there wouldn't be enough material left for research).

How much easier would it be, if the coordinates and the find location would
be known, so that more and intensive searchs could be carried out, to
generate more material.

O.k. with NWA and the desert finds in general, we have the problem, that the
new policy of countries like Algeria or Oman prevents such a process, and
old classic meteorite countries like Australia almost invite finders to
obscure the find locations,
due to unhandy laws. (Australia after a promising development of the find
numbers - while in free coutries like USA the number of finds exploded -
felt back to the period of 1860 - 1950.)
And the developments in MetSoc make me not directly confident, that in
future such a situation or the same mistakes could be prevented in other
desert countries.

Or sume very simple examples, for the collectors to understand.
Take Muonionalusta - at my times, there were only the three modest specimens
known, locked away in institutes - and the collector and the scientist had
to pay around 20$ a gram, if he wanted to get it.
Imagine the place of find wouldn't have been known!
Nowadays due to the recent new finds of several tonnes, a Muonionalusta
costs only 100-150$ a kilogram.

Brahin, very popular today as the cheapest pallasite in history - in the
80ies, 90ies, it was very difficult to get
and it was priced like an Esquel. Only due to the new hunts we are there,
where we are now, where you can have that stuff at 1$ or less for larger
specimens or cuts.


Brenham - if the Real Arnold and the Real Notkin wouldn't have known, where
to look...
Nowadays because of their great work, you and science are paying for Brenham
less than in the years after the finds of the first masses and less than a
Nininger had asked.


Seymchan - always unavailable - and without the new finds of the Russian
heroes, we even wouldn't know, that a Seymchan is a pallasite!

Kainsaz, Chinga, and so on, the list is long...

And so on.

Without coordinates, that all wouldn't have been possible and wouldn't have
happened.


>I honestly don't see the very small number of undisclosed locations
>having any significant impact on the science of meteoritics at all.

The number is HUGE !
The find locations of most NWAs are unknown.

And the field of NWA is by far the most productive meteorite region of all,
well in front of Antarctica - yayaya 35 -40,000 Antartic "meteorites" but
these are field numbers, not different meteorites, divide them by 5 (cause
that is given as average pairing rate).
With NWA alone, aside other Sahara finds, we're know already at number 6000
in less than 10 years (Antarctica 33 years).
And if you check the Bulletin database, the rare types, the NWAs do have
much higher tkws than the Antarctic finds..
......and the NWA, what you see in the Bulletins, is the tip of the iceberg,
cause predominantly and disproportionally the rare and rarest types are
brought to classification - cause the main load, the weathered ordinary
chondrites (wich you have with the Antarctics) still have to come, cause
there aren't enough capacities to classify them at present (and because the
market prices are still insufficient).
And it was the desert finds, which caused the enormous boost of meteoritical
science and science, that we observed these years.

NWA is the largest space program of our times.

(wow, I need a copyright for that sentence).

And that at a small fraction of the price of the smallest and cheapest space
probe.

And I really hope, that this will finally be cognized by the Meteoritical
Society and that MetSoc will do everything, which is in their power,
that NWA can be continued.
Cause at the moment we're facing the beginning complete breakdown of the
NWA-sector,
caused by inappropriate national laws of some desert countries.

Well. Off to Munich show now!
Martin




-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Chris
Peterson
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. Oktober 2009 03:28
An: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret Find/Fall
CoordinatesandLegitimacy-Someone help me understand this.

>If one doesn't have the coordinates of one or more
>stones of an interesting or important stone,
>one doesn't know, where to look for more.

Of course. And I recognize the importance of that to meteorite collectors,
hunters, and dealers. c The rest simply doesn't scientifically.matter-

>And with the coordinates of the fragments, you can
>map the strewnfield, determine the strewn-ellipse
>and from there you can deduct the trajectory of
>the meteorid and fragmentation events.

I have serious doubts that this is practical. The paper is interesting, but
I question its conclusions. A strewn field is not very closely related to a
meteor trajectory in most cases. This paper presents a model with no
observational confirmation. And it utilizes a strewn field that stretches
over kilometers. It is rare enough for coordinates to be withheld, and even
rarer, I expect, when dozens of meteorites are recovered over large fields.

To put it more empirically, I have been reading MAPS and other journals with

meteoritical papers for years. I've seen hundreds or thousands of articles
comparing meteorite mineralogy, formation theory, asteroid association, etc,

but not more than a dozen or so papers detailing the orbit, flight
characteristics, and strewn field of meteorites- despite the fact that most
meteorites have well described coordinates and many have well mapped strewn
fields. I honestly don't see the very small number of undisclosed locations
having any significant impact on the science of meteoritics at all.

Of course, I'm not arguing against disclosing locations, only that failing
to disclose the location should not prevent a meteorite from being named and

classified. That would be far more damaging to science.

Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
To: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret Find/Fall Coordinates
andLegitimacy-Someone help me understand this.


>I recognize that there are rare cases where knowing the exact coordinates
>of a meteorite are essential

I would say rather the opposite - as we all know, many if not most
meteorites break up before they hit the ground.

If one doesn't have the coordinates of one or more stones of an interesting
or important stone, one doesn't know, where to look for more.
If you look e.g. into the pairing groups of the lunar and Martian meteorites
with known coordinates, like e.g. those from Libya or Oman, you'll see that
there are often several years, where additional pieces were found (also from
different people).

And with the coordinates of the fragments, you can map the strewnfield,
determine the strewn-ellipse and from there you can deduct the trajectory of
the meteorid and fragmentation events. (but not with meteortites found on
the icefields, cause they were transported).

Like e.g. the Verdandsky did with SaU 001
http://www.meteorites.ru/menu/publication-e/omandojd-e.pdf
or the Oman-Suisse-team is doing with other finds in Oman.

And for those researchers interested in weathering processes of meteorites,
it is important to know the geological formation, the soil ect. of the find
site.

Best!
Martin

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Received on Wed 28 Oct 2009 07:42:27 AM PDT