[meteorite-list] Carancas Bull

From: Sterling K. Webb <sterling_k_webb_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 15:17:34 -0500
Message-ID: <3A7762220D6C46198FA2138B05E92257_at_ATARIENGINE>

Darryl, Bob, Carl, List,

Check List Archives.

Like so many MetList topics, this one has been
exhaustively back-and-forthed some time ago.
There's enough stuff on the List for a Carancas
Casebook.

I posted translations of Carl's team's interviews
in Amarya translated into Spanish into English.
The original statements about animals (and people)
affected by the blast are to found there (assuming
you want original sources). I posted lots of discussion
about blast forces and distances, the size of the
blast, the speed of the impactor, theories about its
shape, calculations of the amount of material excavated,
even the source of the infamous smell.

Carancas as an event demonstrates nicely how hard it
is to apply what we think we know to what we think
happened. It has generated praised papers for both
the fluid dynamics model of re-entry and the particle-
path model -- one decides it was an abnormally slow
entry and the other decides it was a abnormally fast
entry.

Aren't models wonderful?

There are arguments about whether it's a pit or a crater,
whether the impactor was big or small, and the size of
the blast -- 3kTons? 5kTons? 10kTons? 15kTons?
20kTons? All have been calculated, with seismic evidence,
barometric evidence, and crater dynamics, all giving
different answers. The event has even generated a new
theory of meteoroid fragmentation.

Summary:
1. Several animals were killed.
2. Cause of death (ruptured internal organs)
    is consistent with shock wave.
3. Distances are vague in the witness accounts,
    but so are blast size guesses, but nothing
    precludes any blast deaths.
4. There was a man close enough to be knocked
    flat and left dazed or perhaps shortly unconcious.
    Again, the distance was not precisely determined
    but he was much further away than the animals.


Sterling K. Webb
--------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darryl Pitt" <darryl at dof3.com>
To: "Bob Loeffler" <bobl at peaktopeak.com>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas Bull



Hi Bob...

Bomb blasts were introduced as a way of ramping into a discussion of
shock waves. Be it a bomb or an extraterrestrial impact, we're
talking about the rapid compression of environmental air pressure.

Let's look at Meteor Crater as an example. The impactor was a
fraction of the size of the crater; the volume of the crater was
primarily the result of shock waves; and we refer to the impact having
been responsible for the entire crater.

In fact Meteor Crater is of course referred to as an IMPACT crater. No
one makes the distinction of what aspect of the crater touched the
molecules of the impactor.

Returning to Carancas, I don't understand the distinction that a
bull---real or imagined---isn't considered "impacted" by the very same
shock waves responsible for the overall size of the "impact crater."
It's revealing that a casualty which results from shock waves created
by a bomb are defined as Primary Blast Injury. It seems logical the
same nomenclature will be applied to the first person who is a little
too close to the impact of cosmic debris.

Anyway....

Two points:

Does anyone know whether shock waves crated by an object the size of
Carancas could have been sufficient to have killed a nearby bull?

At least in the case of Valera, we know the "shoulder" (thoracic
vertebrae and scapula) were crushed by the impactor.


PRODUCT ENDORSEMENT: All of the aforementioned words were fueled by
Red Bull.



On Mar 15, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Bob Loeffler wrote:

> Hi Darryl and Walter,
>
> I'm not trying to start this debate up again, so I'm not posting
> this to the
> list.
>
> I think you were getting off topic when talking about bomb blasts
> and deaths
> because that is not what a "hammer" or "hammer stone" is, according to
> Michael Blood who coined the term. If a meteorite hit a person (or
> animal
> or human artifact), it's a hammer stone. But if it hits the earth and
> creates a blast that hurts or kills a person, the meteorite is not a
> hammer
> stone because the blast affected the person, not the meteorite
> itself. I
> think that is the distinction that Walter was trying to convey.
>
> Regards,
>
> Bob
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of
> Darryl
> Pitt
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:53 AM
> To: Walter Branch
> Cc: Meteorite Mailing List
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Carancas Bull
>
>
> Hiya,
>
> My point was that an impact/blast that results in a mortality
> producing shock wave is universally defined as an impact/blast
> casualty. Your attempt to pull shock waves out of the equation in an
> assessment of an impact/blast is akin to taking water out the equation
> in a drowning.
>
> Moving on, I feel I should clarify my position. I never liked the
> term "hammer"---it feels so comic strip-y---and agree it's overused.
> I agree with Anne's orthodoxy on the application of the term---except
> as it pertains to the point addressed above.
>
>
> All best / d,
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 11, 2009, at 6:48 AM, Walter Branch wrote:
>
>> Hi Darryl,
>>
>> Okay, but...
>>
>>> or scholarly assessment---
>>
>> That's what I assumed we are attempting. This list is for meteorite
>> enthusiasts, not journalism enthusiasts.
>>
>> I propose we stick to discussing meteorites, not bomb blasts.
>>
>> -Walter
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darryl Pitt" <darryl at dof3.com>
>> To: "Walter Branch" <waltbranch at bellsouth.net>
>> Cc: "Meteorite Mailing List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] WG: AW: [IMCA] Hammers & Orientation
>> from Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Walter!
>>
>> With all respect....
>>
>> In ANY report---except where there exist the specificity of a coroner
>> or scholarly assessment---bomb victims are bomb victims.
>>
>> There is never differentiation between those killed by blast injury,
>> penetrating wounds, blunt trauma or smoke/fire. In fact the
>> foregoing
>> types of injury are correctly referred to as primary, secondary,
>> tertiary and miscellaneous BLAST INJURIES. Primary blast injury is
>> specifically a rapid increase in air pressure--a shock wave.
>>
>> If the bull was killed by a shock wave created by an impact---it was
>> killed by the impact.
>>
>> And that's no bull....
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 10, 2009, at 10:11 PM, Walter Branch wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Darryl,
>>>
>>>> is a bombing victim killed by a bomb-produced shock
>>>> wave not killed by the bomb?
>>>
>>> No. They would killed by the shock wave.
>>>
>>> If dirt kicked up by a meteorite hits a person, is said meteorite
>>> then a "hammer?" No.
>>>
>>> Like all analogies, it eventually breaks down.
>>>
>>> It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end -
>>> Douglas Adams.
>>>
>>> -Walter Branch
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darryl Pitt" <darryl at dof3.com>
>>> To: "Impactika" <impactika at aol.com>
>>> Cc: <IMCA at imcamail.de>; "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-
>>> martin.de>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:57 PM
>>> Subject: Re: WG: AW: [IMCA] Hammers & Orientation from Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (deep breath)
>>>
>>> is a bombing victim killed by a bomb-produced shock wave not killed
>>> by
>>> the bomb?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> hi anne! ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 10, 2009, at 6:43 PM, Impactika wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Dave, and all,
>>>>
>>>> I submit another example to you: Carancas, since it has been
>>>> discussed on the other List.
>>>>
>>>> In my personal opinion, only one fragment of the Carancas
>>>> meteorite would qualify as a hammer: the fragment that hit the
>>>> house on the picture, but it would have to be properly
>>>> documented, with proof that this specific fragment, and not
>>>> another one, or a piece of ejecta, is the actual fragment that
>>>> damaged this roof. Any other fragment is just that: a fragment
>>>> of the Carancas meteorite. As for the animals, they might have
>>>> been hit by a shock wave, not by a fragment of the meteorite.
>>>>
>>>> With the same logic, a few of the Park Forest fragments can
>>>> qualify as hammers, I am talking about the actual fragments that
>>>> hit cars, roofs, .... and only those. And again, only with
>>>> proper verifiable documentation. All other pieces of Park Forest
>>>> are just that: pieces of the Park Forest meteorite.
>>>>
>>>> That still leaves Peekskill and Claxton as hammer meteorites,
>>>> since they are single stones, and witnessed, documented falls.
>>>>
>>>> As for me, as a dealer, I will not use the term hammer on my
>>>> website unless I have absolute proof and documentation that a
>>>> certain specimen did hit a human, animal, or something man-made
>>>> (roads, trees, fields.... don't count!).
>>>>
>>>> But that is my opinion.
>>>> Any others?
>>>>
>>>> Anne Black
>>>> IMCA - #2356
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 03/10/09 09:16:39 Mountain Daylight Time,
> altmann at meteorite-martin.de
>>>> writes:
>>>> Von: dave at fallingrocks.com [mailto:dave at fallingrocks.com]
>>>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. M?rz 2009 15:47
>>>> An: Martin Altmann
>>>> Betreff: RE: AW: [IMCA] Hammers & Orientation
>>>>
>>>> Hi, Martin,
>>>>
>>>> Please forward this quick note back to the IMCA list; I'm on a web
>>>> interface and can't respond to the list from here...thanks:
>>>>
>>>> . . . . . . . . . . .
>>>> The problem, at least in my view, with hammers is the fact that
>>>> they are most appreciated by the least meteorite-savvy buyers.
>>>> These newbie collectors are most exposed to paying a ridiculous
>>>> price because a piece of, say, Thuathe was found in the roof of
>>>> a hut -- yet the piece they're contemplating purchase around
>>>> was picked up in a field two miles away. Thuathe might not be
>>>> the best example, as it's a killer meteorite in its own right.
>>>> Your example of Gao- Guenie, though by no means reflected in
>>>> market pricing (yet, anyway), might be better.
>>>>
>>>> . . . . . . . . . . .
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> IMCA #5967
>>>>
>>>> www.fallingrocks.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a
>>>> recession.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> IMCA mailing list
>>>> IMCA at imcamail.de
>>>> http://lists.imcamail.de/mailman/listinfo/imca
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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Received on Sun 15 Mar 2009 04:17:34 PM PDT