[meteorite-list] A question?????
From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 05:38:37 +0200 Message-ID: <000b01c9e721$71afe660$177f2a59_at_name86d88d87e2> Hiho, >How do I know Cicero wasn't being sarcastic? Cause it's from his "Somnium Scipionis", one of the most prevalent cosmologic writings. There he describes the Earth as a globe, with poles, climes, antipodes on the opposed hemispheres...similar as we do it today, hence the same concept, what we have today of planet Earth (with the difference, that our Earth isn't in the middle of the universe) - and that globe he calls "terra" The other quote of Severius was from his commentary to Virgil's Aeneid. (which has here and there some relations to Scipio's Dream). Well, let's look simply in the most popular astronomy book of the 13th - 16th century. The Carl Sagan of these times was John of Hollywood, (Sacrobosco, ca. 1195 - 1256 AD). He wrote a meagre and short excerpt from Ptolemaeus' Megale Syntaxis, called "Tractatus de Sphaera". That was one of the most copied books of all of the Middle Ages, each student, passing the second course of studies, had to learn it by rote. Hence was the standard schoolbook for astronomy for several centuries. There he explains the Earth as globe (like on your desk), a ball with its poles, equator, tropics, arctic circles ect. gives diameter and circumference.. And that physical object, that ball, the Earth is called continuously throughout that booklet "terra". So without needing any semantics or philosophy... ...one could come to an opinion... ...that simply because all called that ball they were sitting on "terra", that this would be a good name for planet Earth. (I'm sure you'll find the complete text of the Sphaera several times on internet). >to describe adjectives for the Earth as a planet because regardless of >what shape they thought it had, it was still the the point of reference Funny enough, you'll find in Sacrobosco's sphere, that the size of the Earth compared to heaven's is a point... Even more funny, if the Earth was unlike the planets, and the ultimate ground, source ect. how easily the emperors from the 8th. century on could juggle with that Earth-ball in their hands on the pictures.. (and it's the Earth, as seen by the division by the bands around into 3 parts - the Roman emperors had still a naked ball, the sphere of the heavens, the universe in their hands). > I think you would find that the ancients had no reasonable vocabulary.. > ...At best it would probably have more to do with the concept of "the > world" Mundus Don't think so, we don't have to make the Ancients more stupid as they never were... Take the stereographic projection. You can't project the circles in the sky on a lump of dirt, a point, or a philosophic-theological doghouse. You need a geometrical concept of your world, earth, planet call it like you want, of a ball. A hand-tight problem, they solved. Without disturbing goddesses and stuff. >of your reply which seemed to unnecessarily ..which was indicated by my last remark in the mail btw. That one is most probably too. Well for some is interesting to know, where their stones stem from, and for others, where their words stem from, for others, where the ideas and concepts stem from, ...and for most nothing of that matters... And personally, I guess, for me an Earth meteorite wouldn't be that fascinating. A stone hurled in space, flying around a few millions of years... ...for me my meteorites shall stem from there, where I never will be able to access - from other celestial bodies! ..sicut in cealo, et in terra.... Amen Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mexicodoug Gesendet: Sonntag, 7. Juni 2009 00:40 An: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] A question????? Hiho Mr. Martindale, (Isn't Miss Martindale a Tellurian? UK humor) The adjective already in the language defined in the more limited manner we want is TERRENE. So throw out TERRAN and use TERRENE and I'm fine, are you? --------------------------------- I didn't think so... all right...mmmm, I'll plug and grind away at some of your reply which seemed to unnecessarily and possibly incorrectly to look to Latin to make up words and take the ancients out of context ... Back to reality, and plain English. (The Italians can debate whether Terran works for them, but that seems like a silly argument for English. "Terran" is not a generally accepted English word that evokes sci-fi to meant it was not my intent to make up new words when sufficient words already exist in plain English - that was the real reason I called it a "sci-fi" word. I do not feel it is in a mere mortal's place to modify the dictionary any more than a fire hydrant. TERRESTRIAL is the word, if we didn't happen to live here and already have plenty of uses for it w/r to meteorites and geology IMO - it seems you are sympathetic to the idea that "terrestrial" has meteorwrong, pseudometeorite, etc. as unwanted confusion and baggage. Besides since all the Inner planets are terrestrial, they are terrestrial meteorites if you want to get picky, vs. cometary, etc. Then weathering, terrestrialization ... Just way too much confusion. So I think TERRENE and TELLURIAN (consistently defined as from earth without inventing a new word) are both fine and not exclusive (of course not, they are words common man has every right to use) any more than calling something a Martian meteorite or a Mars meteorite - where both descriptors are OK. If you want to look for obscure or invented words, TERRAN is great, too, I suppose, as long as you find one first and publish the precedent. Else, I don't agree. Quoting Cicero (unless you mean the guy from Sky & Tel), won't get you any points unless you do a dissertation on what was going on in people's minds back then! Earth was an element, comparable to air and water, not a planet in a modern sense. How do I know Cicero wasn't being sarcastic? Your liberty with the translation of the word dicitur, you try to pass it with authority(!) as nominative and tending to exclusive...hmmm.... perhaps is just means "say", as in this land for which we say dirt? I don't see it very important either way as there is no need to be dweebish (the word you were looking for) by taking quotes out of context of a near dead though beautiful language since OE and Webster's dictionaries have all we need in boldface. In German, Terran might be the right word - no problem! As for the comments about the "poetic negative" for tellurian, you totally lost me there and let me add gender as a factor, is Terran more macho and Tellurian more effeminate and is that you basis - well, earth out to be effeminate as it is named after a woman...like Venus. Mars is masculine sure... I already gave you the support of the periodic chart of the elements tellurium ("from the earth"), which should be enough to earn a place. It may be that some Germans think the entire English Language sounds poetic compared to theirs! When you discuss by some weird logic I don't follow that this poetic stuff extends to it being the goddess as opposed to the planet, I only wish Mr. Peabody were here to send you to have a face to face with the Legions in the WayBack Machine, the you could see that the planets got their names from Gods that represented them, like Jupiter, Mars, Mercury and Venus. Do we call something Jupiteran or Jupiterian? No we call it Jovian. Why? Because it is the word in the dictionary, from Jove, btw, the "poetic" form of Jupiter. That's how adjectives can be ... For parallel logic, you can't help but trip over "Tellurian". I think you would find that the ancients had no reasonable vocabulary to describe adjectives for the Earth as a planet because regardless of what shape they thought it had, it was still the the point of reference for the Universe, and was a different animal from the planets they named. That is why terra means dirt in Italian and Portuguese today. At best it would probably have more to do with the concept of "the world" Mundus or whatever the Latin folk have. The English word for that which has as one definition meaning terrestrial is mundane. So if you want to add "MUNDANE" to the pot , be my guest. And Earth Meteorites seems fine too :) You might take a look at this which I just found, and I was happy to see the sci-fi comment by whoever wrote the current version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexicography_of_Earth Best wishes, Doug -----Original Message----- From: Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:12 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A question????? Hiho Doug, >the name of the planet "Terra" is more based in science fiction of some >authors these days rather. Cicero: "ille globus quae terra dicitur.." That ball, we call Earth. In principle "tellus" and "terra" are synonyms, but "tellus" is more poetic, means more the goddess, the Earth as center of the world, in opposite to a celestial body; while "terra" means more the physical matter, the Earth as whole physical entity (in fact as planet, as celestial body, if they wouldn't have had a geocentric system)and also as one of the elements (water, fire..). Although for the elements only, there for was also "solum", means also earth, used, especially in opposite to the element water - see also today "solid". =0 AAnd additionally in the meaning of "land" "ground", "bottom". Finally there is still "humus" for earth. That means earth in the sense of the hierarchic system of the spheres, where the sphere of the element earth was in the center of the universe, (below the sphere of water, below the sphere of air...). So it means the lowest, the inmost. (humble, humiliate ect.). "Tellurem pro terra posuit, quum tellurem deam dicamus, terram elementum." Maurus Servius Honoratus (a grammarian around AD 420) Uh my Latin... well he says, fort he goddess "tellus", fort he element "terra". Hmmm I would say, from the Roman ancient world until the modern times, "terra" was more in use to denominate Earth as planet. (Also because of the Christian tradition, as "terra" is used in the Latin bible. See also Augustinus). So perhaps we should stay with Terra? The adjective to Terra in Latin would be "terrenus". So probably "Terran meteorite" would be correct. Exist also Latin "terrestris", but that means rather "located on Earth, part of the Earth", so we could leave "terrestrial" for pseudo-meteorites. (btw. Mars, Martis --> Martian. (Martinus, says Martin, the Martian). Mercur, Mercuris ---> Mercurian. Venus, Veneris ---> Venerian. (cause I read somewhere Venusian) Hmm the Doug "Dawn"-space probe is on the way to Vesta. Vestalian meteorites sounds a little bit....) Uuuuuuh, a posting like from one of those class mates from th e 1st row, you never wanted to be friend with...(Don't know the right expression. Geek? Swot?..) Have a nice weekend! Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mexicodoug Gesendet: Samstag, 6. Juni 2009 09:34 An: jgrossman at usgs.gov; Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] A question????? Dr. Grossman wrote: "I think most scientists would call it a terrestrial meteorite, or perhaps a terran meteorite." Hi Jeff, Definitely those are viable options, though I think this subject would spark more debate than Pluto, Plutonian and Plutonic in these extended circles if it ever had a type specimen. I think the name "TELLURIAN", the adjective (From TELLUS[Earth]) might be another option, and perhaps more harmonic. Given the confusion and stigma with "terrestrial" in meteoritics frequently being used to describe meteorwrongs, I think this third choice could be considered on equal footing without having the baggage. Do I recall many scientists objecting for example to the useage of "plutonic" as an adjective for Plutoness? Utilizing Mars as an example and considering the name of the planet "Terra" is more based in science fiction of some authors these days rather than "Terra Mater", the Roman goddess. As for Terran, it sounds a bit far fetched to me, but hey... For meteorite collectors who will no do ubt be the first to collect these so far legendary things, it seems our examples: martian meteorite (martian for short) lunar meteorite (lunar for short, ocassionally the throat-twisting lunaite) ...why not: tellurian meteorite (tellurian for short) Tellus, the equivalent Roman Earth goddess as Terra Mater, which further rounds out the Earth-panteon of Roman possibilities, seems almost a natural option and probably just slipped your list. I didn't mention tellurite since there is already a mineral named this with a cool blue subadamantine sheen...chemists (who as we know generally don't get no respect from geologists) that discovered the metallic element opted for Tellurium to name it after Earth, of course, for similar considerations we have now, and probably too avoid confusion with terrariums, those fish tanks filled with dirt. Ironically, Earth's crust is astonishingly poor in this element, vs. meteorites and the cosmos in general. Well, they were chemists after all. So "Terran meteorite" might have an edge here is you like to say Terraite three times fast. (If someone likes tongue-twisters, how about, five times fast, "Terr's Tertiary temper terrified Terry the teary Terran from Tetroe." got to roll the rr's ad pronounce it Tee-troe. Anway, tellurian and terran sounds like great candidates to me. Considering the hard sound of Terran, which sounds a lot like "dirt" (real dumb joke alert) and might give us customs problems when we get our space faring passports or ship meteorites around the Solar system, not to mention hurt meteorite dealers' sales... In any case, I'll wait for the first guy who breaks the myth and recovers material for science to Tellus what to call it. (oops, never hear the end of that one) Hoping to escape this heat and join the Telluridian Festivarians for the Solstice, Doug (chemist) -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Grossman <jgrossman at usgs.gov> Sent: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 5:12 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A question????? I think most scientists would call it a terrestrial meteorite, or perhaps a terran meteorite.? ? jeff? ? Pete Shugar at clearwire.net wrote:? > We have the Martian type meteorite, and we have the? > Lunar meteorite and last, the asteroid 4Vesta meteorite.? > These we know where they come from.? >? > Now the question---given enough energy, can a meteorite? > hit earth and eject debris which (maybe) land on the moon? > or Mars? What would we call such a meteorite---Earthoid,? > or maybe Earthite?? > Just contemplating my navel here.? > Pete? >? > ______________________________________________? > http://www.meteoritecentral.com? > Meteorite-list mailing list? > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com? > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list? >? ? -- Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184? US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383? 954 National Center? Reston, VA 20192, USA? ? ______________________________________________? http://www.meteoritecentral.com? Meteorite-list mailing list? Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com? http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list? ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Received on Sat 06 Jun 2009 11:38:37 PM PDT |
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