[meteorite-list] Old men say to Greg C. was Arizona Fall-detailed...

From: Dave Gheesling <dave_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 21:14:49 -0400
Message-ID: <6B8EFA5927D04D2989D0E196BEE553CE_at_meteorroom>

Al, Martin & All,
Ditto, Al. Terrific post, Martin...very much worth the read, and thank you
for the time spent in writing it.
Dave
www.fallingrocks.com

-----Original Message-----
From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of al mitt
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 8:16 PM
To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Cc: Martin Altmann
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Old men say to Greg C. was Arizona
Fall-detailed...

Hi Martin and all,

Very well put and something we all should save and read a couple of times a
year!! Your so many times right on with your thinking.

--AL Mitterling


----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Old men say to Greg C. was Arizona Fall
-detailed...


Hi Greg C.

>I know what I pay for Lunar, and when I see others charging what they
>do, it makes me wonder - I am just lucky to get it for what I do or do
>the dealers really want to make that much off the collectors?
>I do not want to throw sand or gloat, but I do speak what I think.

Ya Greg, but you have to think before and to think a little bit further.

Because I think, you disregard important parameters in your calculation.
Seems that you're thinking - buying price minus selling price = profit.
Which is somewhat short-sighted.

Let's start with the most simple to understand:
I don't know, are you paying taxes for your sales?
Each "big" or professional dealer, who does his living with meteorites, has
to do so.
Don't know, I read somewhere, that the average tax&dues quota in USA would
be smth around 30%. Plus here and there federal sales taxes.
There are other countries, where the quota exceeds 50%.
And maybe those professional dealers want to have a health insurance or even
a pension plan like anybody in other professions has too?

So the next point, perhaps not so easy to understand yet for you.
A big dealer has to bring up permanently new material of rare types and new
meteorites, the hunter in the field has to find permanently better stuff
than the 90% ordinary chondrites, which are lying around, a fall chaser has
to find pieces of the few falls per year at all, if they want to make a
living from meteorites.

So they have to work completely differently than you, who orders a few
stones per year of already known (and in most cases known, because the
hunters/dealers had them classified before) material from your armchair.

And there we have a problem, Greg.
Meteorites are by far the rarest stuff on Earth. A ruby, a world-class
diamond, a dinosaur - no problem, a dealer can simply reorder, if he's
running out - but with a new Lunar, a new Martian, ya even with a new
eucrite - he can't. The professional hunters have to travel and to graze the
fields week for week, hoping to find something better than an ordinary
chondrite
- look into the bulletins, how few achondrites were found in the US-deserts,
how small the weight of all achondrites is, collected through more than 30
years in Antarctica, where the stones are especially easy to identify, or
from that huge half of the continent covered by Sahara in the last 20 years.
100kgs of eucrites only from NWA, to give you a hint.
And a fall hunter has to try his luck with the 7 or 10 falls per year.

Ask the regular and best desert hunters in USA - we figured it already out
on the list in former times, what for average find rates per hour they have,
- the result is, that if they would like to live from their finds, it would
be more rewarding and easier for them to tie around an apron and to get
employed at a fast food instead.
And the NWA-dealers - they have to travel to Morocco and have to try to
identify new exiting stones. If the possible lunar turns later out to be an
eucrite only or a terrestrial - bad luck, the money at stack is lost.
That they have to compensate too.

Other simply costs.
You experienced it with your piece of the lunar - from your postings to the
list, we heard that you got so insecure about the provenance or you weren't
aware, that this material was already classified, that you almost - if not
the nice members of the list, yes also big dealers, informed you, that it
wouldn't be necessary - hence that you almost had reclassified that stuff at
Ted Bunch again.
That would have meant, that you'd have to give away 20% of your lunar for
free, which again would have reduced your profit.
You took advantage - as it is often with assumed pairings too - that others
took the costs for classification.
Yes it is true - the dealers do let classify their stones and if it's
something so rare like a planetary, they do have to donate material of a
retail value of 20 or 30k$.
- and anyway most of the big dealers donate a lot more material of their
finds than only the type & deposit specimens.

Well more costs:
You see the hunters in the deserts, the fall chasers, the NWA dealers, they
all travel many months, half a year or more per year to get new finds for
the collectors and researchers.

That costs. We just read from Michael Farmer, that he has travel expenses
per year of 50k$. That sum he has to earn!

But just google around, what it would cost you, to buy a plane ticket to NWA
wonderland, to rent a car, to spend several weeks there - and how many UNWAs
or HEDs you would have to sell, to get only your travel costs back.
And try to find there a new lunar or Martian - the odds you can figure out
from the Bulletin database.

Other costs.
Transaction costs like paypal, ebay fees ect. you know by your own, But a
dealer has to run a business, with all the costs for bureau, bookkeeping,
advertising, machines, preparation costs and and and, Costs which an amateur
seller doesn't has or not to that extend.

Take only the iron preparators, how long does it take to completely slice
down a 2kg Muonionalusta or a Campo, how long does it take to grind and to
polish a hand sized slice to that perfect state and on both sides please,
which allows an etching of that quality, which each collector does expect?
How long does it take to stabilize and to preserve each slice at the state
of art after etching?
Have you an idea, how much such a slice would cost then, if you only would
have to pay the minimum wage for the working hours and the machines and
preparation material costs?
That stuff is so cheap, cause the preparators are doing it by their selves.

Think to the cut and polishing loss.
You see how crumbly your Lunar is. What for a cut loss you'd have, if you
would cut slices and expertly polish them as it is standard among the
collectors.
Stones and irons 20-30%...
Reduces again your profit.


And look what else they're doing - that basical work of growing and
instructing new collectors, customer service, they organize exhibitions or
give their best pieces on loan to exhibitions for free (where each art
collector would get a fine sum), they are writing books, giving lessons, go
into schools, they spread knowledge in the newspapers and on TV, All that
basic work.
O.k. - that all are doing many collectors too - but did you so too?

Or they bring you the stones to the shows.
I'm not so sure, whether your revenue from the piece of lunar at the end
would be sufficient to pay 2 weeks as an exhibitor in Tucson or to have a
stall at the Munich or Tokyo show.

And see what they're nevertheless doing, the so greedy big dealers, they
tinker even from their most exciting finds small servings, that each and
every collector now matter how limited their budgets are, can participate.
You see what Farmer, the Hupes, we are doing - seen only the efforts and
costs all these Micros 1g, 2g pieces, these 2-50$ polished slices are in
fact a loss for them or at best not profitable. But they offer them
additionally for everybody being able to enjoy that hobby.

Well and at the end - they do this all often alone as one-man-shows.

Hence keeping that all in mind,
you'll recognize that it was somewhat easy for you to start acting as big
Robin Hood and to play the Hero.

(In fact a professional dealer, if he would buy at your purchase price and
would resell at your selling price, would earn a lot less than you).

Cause seen these conditions, it's anyway astonishing, that professional
dealers are all in all not more expensive than hobby-sellers or not so
seldom even cheaper.

And anyway I can't understand your anger.
Would you scream blue murder in a mechanics forum too, cause in some cases
you would be able to fix your car by your own?
Would you suspect the members of a baker's mailing-list to be extortioners,
cause if necessary you would be able to make a bread by yourself?

See. If it's accepted as absolutely normal that such professions are paid
for their services, wouldn't it be a matter of course, that meteorite
dealers would be paid in a fair manner too to appreciate their performance?

A profession btw, which I suspect to be more difficult than others, cause if
it would be so easy as you think it is, I guess we would have in each major
town and in each second mall a specialized meteorite shop...

Well and you're experienced it now by your own, that it's not that easy with
selling meteorites, in getting frustrated, that noone seemed to have
directly been waiting for buying that lunar at 1000$/g from you.

(O.k. collector-sized slices - slices and not fragments were here and there
offered at 1250$/g too, hence seen the cut loss your offer wasn't that
sensational - and in general you had bad luck, cause you hadn't checked the
archives before, where a Moroccan had offered that lunar in big chunks at
500$/g to the list).

But in general also the sale of meteorites has a lot to do with courtesy,
mutual respect and trust, likewise the whole meteorite community is shaped
and ruled by these values.

That after your behaviour here on the list, the dealers and experienced
colletors weren't be eager to share their experiences and knowledge with
you, isn't surprising, because there are friendlier people and newcomers to
deal with.

And that the meteorite scene isn't that evil as you might have thought, you
just experienced today, where several of those, who you suspected before to
be dishonest, even took the time to answer you and others already offered
you assistance in learning how to hunt for meteorites.

I don't know, it is a banality that a correct behaviour and a certain
courtesy is the fundament for a friendly cooperation and relationship.

With your rantings you hadn't made yourself directly friends, neither such
things are well and truly (and note, that we never made an issue out of it).

http://kuerzer.de/Cattplag

vs

http://kuerzer.de/ChladOrg


But now, I'm sure, you'll make it better.


Why I'm writing that all to the list, where I guess most know that all, and
not to you privately...

Because I have uncomfortable feelings.
Perhaps it's only because I'm starting to get senile.

But among the youngest generation of collectors of the last 1-3 years, at
least to me it seems so, there are many so aggressive.
So many angry young men.
Not only in USA, everywhere else too.
And I don't know why.
They rage against the system, where there is no system. Everywhere they
smell a conspiracy. (The dealers conspiracy, the hunters conspiracy, the
ebay-seller conspiracy, the veteran collectors conspiracy, the Moroccan
conspiracy, the scientist conspiracy, the IMCA-conspiracy....).

And I don't understand, why they then collect meteorites at all, if it makes
them so angry?

Most of the collectors want to have in their meteorites an equilibrium to
their hard daily routine. Meteorites are a source of joy for them.
Nourishment for their curiosity, for their aesthetical sensation, occasion
for occupying with the universe, with history, with science or also very
concrete to work on them in cutting, preparing or even to go for a hunt out
in nature..
...the reasons for them to collect are manifold.

But if the only joy I get from meteorites should be the satisfaction to have
bought a stone cheaper than my fellow-collector, to make some bucks in
selling stones, to find a valve to let out my aggressions in ranting about
each and everybody and to listen to and to spread nasty gossip, then I would
say, that for these purposes, meteorites aren't directly necessary.
That kind of occupation one can have in any other field too and easier I
guess too.

Huh, back to the new fall.

History is fine.
Greg, perhaps, if you find a little time, you could search a little bit on
internet about the history of Gold Basin and the unforgotten Jim Kriegh.

Than you will see, that that, what happens now with the new fall is nothing
to bristle about or to be worried.

Best!
Martin













-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Greg
Catterton
Gesendet: Montag, 6. Juli 2009 05:49
An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall - detailed...


I will break this down some...
> Greg, you seem to have a good heart, but you are coming off as very
nasty.>

Thanks, I do have a good heart, and I dont want to come off as nasty - its
hard to get your points across how you want them to be on the internet.

> We make a living at this, now you are selling meteorites
and gloating and throwing sand in the eyes of the "big dealers" on prices.
Do you think this will help your chances?>

I sell meteorites only to help to pay for my collection. When dealers sell
stuff like ordinary chondrites for $100 per gram, unless you are rich, you
all but have to sell if you want samples of the new falls.
I know what I pay for Lunar, and when I see others charging what they do, it
makes me wonder - I am just lucky to get it for what I do or do the dealers
really want to make that much off the collectors?
I do not want to throw sand or gloat, but I do speak what I think. It may
not always come off like I want it to, but I wont hold my tounge when I have
something to say.
As far as my chances, I had nasty emails over what I was selling lunar for,
have been turned down many many times when I have asked for help and ideas,
I dont think my chances from the well known group like you are in were good
to begin with - as you said, why help out the competion?

>I am really not interested in training my competition, so I am not too
>keen
to take people with me. This is not meant to be mean, but common sense.>

Did Bob Haag not help you out? From what I have read and understand, he did
alot. Correct me if I am wrong.
I am far from competition to you, nor would I ever really want to be. As I
said, I only sell to help pay for my personal collection - So I sell a few
things from time to time... look at my ebay record, then look at yours. Its
a struggle for me to come up with enough material to get a power seller
status to get a discount for fees!
I have really been into the meteorite hobby for 3 years, how long have you
been into it? If you consider me copetition, I take that as an impressive
compliment!

I was not able to make it to west, my wife was in her last weeks of Nursing
school (she passed and is now an official RN!!) and I now have more time to
put into meteorites. I knew you were kind enough to help a few then, I did
not understand why not now.

I am eager to learn from the guys like you who for better or worse are well
known and who I thought would be great menotrs of sorts... When I am
constantly turned down while seeking to better myself and my knowlege on
meteorites, it is frusterating as many claim to be in it for the benifit of
science and learning - yet are unwilling to really help someone who wants to
learn how to do it right.

I can read books all day long (which I do) but when it comes to in the field
learning and hands on, books dont do it.

so, to rap up this book, I am sorry if I have offended anyone, it was not my
intent. I just think that some of the people out there should remember when
they were new at this and how much they wanted to learn and take part in
things and consider that when someone asks to help out.
I would have been happy just being there and learning about the aspects of
the hunt and documentaion - even if I came back empty handed, the trip would
have been worth it to me from the experience I would have gained from it.

Instead, I am now a collector who is really considering walking away from
meteorites due to what I feel is an exclusive group who is unwilling to
allow someone like me who honestly wants to learn from you all to take part.

Yes, I can do it on my own, but I would rather learn from people who know
what they are doing and learn how to do it right instead of blindly
stumbling along before I get it right.

Hope everyone is good and had a safe 4th of July.

Greg C.


--- On Sun, 7/5/09, Michael Farmer <meteoriteguy at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Michael Farmer <meteoriteguy at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the Arizona Fall
> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, "Greg Catterton"
<star_wars_collector at yahoo.com>
> Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 10:30 PM
>
> Greg, you seem to have a good heart, but you are coming off as very
> nasty.
> Just go hunt, I learned on my own, most people learn by doing. My
> first real fall was Monahans, then months later Portales, I learned on
> the spot, alone, it was every man for himself.
> We make a living at this, now you are selling meteorites and gloating
> and throwing sand in the eyes of the "big dealers" on prices. Do you
> think this will help your chances? Come on, I spent ~$50,000 a year on
> hunts, and let me tell you, I must recoup this in sales, or I will be
> living in a cardboard box. Your emails harping on overpriced dealers
> are not falling on deaf ears. Go ahead, do a hunt yourself, see what
> the costs are for stones found, and you would find that most in West
> lost money, even those who found stones!
> Get over it, take a chance, do it. I am really not interested in
> training my competition, so I am not too keen to take people with me.
> This is not meant to be mean, but common sense.
> Michael Farmer
>
> --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Greg Catterton <star_wars_collector at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Greg Catterton <star_wars_collector at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the
> Arizona Fall
> > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 8:25 PM
> >
> > Im glad you seem to understand where I am coming from,
> this
> > was not meant as an attack, just my frustration at not
> being
> > able to join in on what I would consider a great
> learning
> > experience.
> > When I was told it was being kept secret, I felt
> pretty
> > upset at the fact that it seemed to be that something
> of a
> > high scholl clique only type thing.
> > I am newer at this and want to take up as many things
> like
> > this as I can to better learn and understand things
> and
> > thought with the gorup out there currently, I could
> learn
> > alot while contributing in a good manner.
> >
> > I have asked many hunters to tag along on trips,
> becouse I
> > dont know how to do it and really want to learn. each
> time I
> > have been told no.
> >
> > I want to learn how to do this right and if none of
> these
> > guys are willing to help me out or anyone else who
> wants to
> > learn how to do it right, why should I even stay in
> this
> > hobby?
> >
> > Greg C.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Jack Schrader <schraderj at rocketmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > From: Jack Schrader <schraderj at rocketmail.com>
> > > Subject: [meteorite-list] My thoughts on the
> Arizona
> > Fall
> > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > > Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 5:35 PM
> > >
> > > Dear list members.
> > >
> > > I have today received an email from a person.
> He
> > sent the
> > > message to the list and not to me personally so
> you
> > already
> > > know who this person is. If he had sent the
> message
> > to me
> > > personally, I would have treated it with
> complete
> > > confidentiality. I feel that it is important
> to
> > share the
> > > information I shared with him with the members
> of
> > this
> > > list. Most of the people on this list have
> been
> > involved
> > > with the science of meteorites for many years
> and
> > have
> > > already gained the knowledge and wisdom that can
> only
> > come
> > > from years of experience. This list has been
> very
> > fortunate
> > > to have been joined by people who are new to the
> > science and
> > > to the wonderful hobby of collecting
> meteorites. His
> > email
> > > was not sent to be malicious but was sent out of
> > frustration
> > > and out of his enthusiastic desire to be able to
> look
> > for a
> > > new meteorite and to actually find one for
> himself..
> > These
> > > people who hold this intense enthusiasm are the
> people
> > we
> > > need in this science, this
> > > hobby. This is the dream we all hold dear, to
> > venture out,
> > > find and be the first one to touch a stone that
> > acually fell
> > > to earth from space. I have copied the
> information I
> > sent
> > > to him below. I hope others who are
> experiencing
> > similar
> > > feelings of frustration at the present time will
> > benefit
> > > from this as well.
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello. This fall is a very rare, a very
> important
> > and
> > > historic fall for this state and for the
> University
> > of
> > > Arizona in particular as the site is very
> literally in
> > their
> > > own back yard. It is vitally important that the
> area
> > be
> > > protected for only as long as it takes to
> properly
> > record
> > > and document the fall. I have seen what happens
> to
> > an area
> > > when the location is announced publicly too
> early.
> > The
> > > area is almost immediately deluged and over run
> with
> > not
> > > only the true professional meteorite hunters who
> are
> > > actually trying to do something good and recover
> the
> > stones
> > > properly with GPS coordinates and photographic
> > evidence of
> > > the stones in situ but with every treasure seeker
> and
> > rock
> > > hunter and curiosity seeker who could care less
> about
> > the
> > > science but more about simply having something
> cool to
> > show
> > > off to their friends. This is okay too and
> there is
> > > absolutely nothing wrong with this but right now
> is
> > not the
> > > time for this. This area is presently pristine and kin to a very
> > > delicate
> > archaeological site.
> > > The archaeologists need to do the proper work in
> the
> > area
> > > before the "pot
> > > hunters" find it and destroy any information
> that
> > could
> > > otherwise be learned from the site. My
> intention is
> > > certainly not simply just for the money or the
> stones
> > that
> > > can be recovered. When you really give this
> some
> > thought,
> > > you will realize that I did not have to tell a
> single
> > soul
> > > about this. I discovered this remote area
> entirely
> > on my
> > > own using the knowledge that I have gained over
> many
> > years
> > > of hunting meteorites. I could have very easily
> kept
> > this
> > > site to myself and hunted it for months and
> months.
> > But
> > > the path I chose was simply to do the right
> thing. I
> > made
> > > a proper announcement and I have begun
> preparations
> > for
> > > conducting a proper search and recording of the
> fall
> > site.
> > > Please do not worry. You will get your
> opportunity
> > to hunt
> > > the area. There will be stones in this area to
> be
> > > recovered for years to come and you will find
> yours.
> > And
> > > they will be free, you will not have to buy
> > anything. The
> > > area as any area where meteorite have fallen either in recent or
> > > in ancient times is
> > impossible
> > > to
> > > hunt out completely. I am just simply asking
> for a
> > little
> > > time that it takes to be able to properly record
> this
> > fall
> > > site so the information may be available to the
> > University
> > > of Arizona and to any other institutions and
> > meteoriticists
> > > in the world who may have an interest in the work
> that
> > we
> > > will be doing. It is too important to risk
> > destroying the
> > > information at this point not only for the
> science
> > that can
> > > be gained from the area but for the generations
> to
> > come who
> > > may have an interest in learning more about the
> > dynamics of
> > > meteors and the variety of strewn field types
> that
> > they
> > > create. I do appreciate your understanding.
> My
> > very best
> > > wishes, Dr. Jack Schrader
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ______________________________________________
> > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com
> > > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >
>



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Received on Mon 06 Jul 2009 09:14:49 PM PDT