[meteorite-list] Bogus indochinites? Are they or aren't they?

From: Norm Lehrman <nlehrman_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 05:56:42 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <374086.43908.qm_at_web81006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Greetings Dirk, Mark, & all,

I have previously forwarded off-list comments to some on this matter, but just to round out the story for everyone, here are a few bits from our experience.

We have purchased some very large lots of tektites from several sources. For many years we have had a consistent buyer of over 10,000 specimens per year. As these are used for educational purposes, we have handled and examined each and every one. Lots of odds and ends are included in every shipment, but I don't consider this intentionally fraudulent on the part of any of my suppliers. Bulk tektites are a bulk commodity and have a very low unit value to the finder. I am frankly amazed that the overall percentage of rejects is so low. The most common cull materials found in bulk shipments are: clinkers & slag, coal, tourmaline, garnets, melted glass, fragments of plastic, and assorted common rocks. I don't think this is the result of deceit. It's just bulk materials being handled as quickly as possible.

What does distress me is that I have seen this same cull material offered as individual specimens by dealers in Tucson who apparently think that just because it was found in a bag of tektites, it is therefor a tektite, ---in fact, an odd tektite deserving of its own box and individual piece sale. It should not need to be said, but I will say it anyway: if you buy bulk tektites, don't suspend critical judgement. Some of the black bits in there aren't tektites even if they are in a bag marked "tektites".

As for the fake moldavites, these also are quite often honest mistakes. Don't assume that every seller of the same is a crook. When I have contacted sellers on such matters, I would say that 80% of the time, they truly had no idea their material wasn't authentic and withdrew their auctions quickly and honorably.

The ones you really need to watch out for are the "new" localities. These are the ones that show up periodically from Utah, or Arizona, or somewhere in Africa or a host of other places. Once someone has decided that what they have is a new type of tektite, there is seldom an objective bone left in their body. They can always find some teacher or professor or geologist who endorses their find. This is big-time buyer beware. I always give the new discoveries a fair hearing. We'd all love to find something new. But be careful. Honest people will be open about doubts and uncertainties. If they start to talk about conspiracies to supress their find, and quote all sorts of authorities who could not be in a position to be real authorities, throw out the red flag!

As for the "Indochinites", Dirk has told you like it is. It is virtually impossible to be sure of a source locality without self-collecting or getting it from someone you can trust impeccably who has self-collected(like Dirk). Even my most trusted suppliers, who may well be completely trustworthy, get their materials from other suppliers of completely unknown integrity. The front-line collectors have a vested interest in keeping their localities secret.

Best regards to all,

Norm Lehrman
(tektitesource.com)




--- On Fri, 2/13/09, drtanuki <drtanuki at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: drtanuki <drtanuki at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bogus indochinites? Are they or aren't they?
> To: "Mark Ford" <mark.ford at ssl.gb.com>, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 4:14 AM
> Dear Mark and List,
> You are correct that it is unlikely that tektites are
> faked, 99.99% BUT NOT 100%. Rare types such as buttons
> etc., rare types or rare localities perhaps would be the
> most likely target because of profit vs effort.
>
> I have seen ONE intentionally faked tektite in the
> Philippines in the Late Dr. Beyer`s collection from the
> 1930~40s (labeled as 'fake'- it was two real
> tektites that had been affixed together with asphalt to form
> a very unusual shape).
>
> Moldavite faked- see ebay and check especially China,
> Hong Kong sellers.
> "Faked" (mis-represented or mis-identified)
> Libyan glass...we saw it before from China.
>
> It is NOT uncommon to see slag substituted as
> Indochinite.
>
> In my opinion "Indochinite" is not a good name
> as it allows for such a large area and they may not all be
> from the same source impact crater or same impact event. We
> have yet to find a source crater or craters!
>
> I am also of the opinion that there were multiple impacts
> at the time of their formation and the term
> "Indochinite" is a term left for orphaned tektites
> that the find location is no longer known or the person
> obtaining them bought them from persons unwilling to give
> the find location for financial reasons OR the seller just
> did not know and assumed that the location was what the
> local seller said.
>
> For example, in Thailand, Vietnam, Hong Kong and
> especially China there are many tektites that are sold as
> being from China or Thailand when in fact they were imported
> from Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam and even the
> Philippines).
>
> In Bangkok, and elsewhere, many of the sellers
> (merchants) have never been to the field and rely on their
> contacts (suppliers) to obtain them. True information
> (fact) in Asia, and in most of the real world, comes at a
> cost and it does not pay the merchant to advertise for his
> competitors or customers the location of his source.
>
> I personally will not willingly give the exact location
> for the tektites that I have collected to amateurs or
> "dealers" so that they can further enhance their
> profits and further deplete scientifically valuable find
> information.
>
> I will give accurate information as to country and
> Provence (IF I am 100% certain only) and that I have seen
> for myself and collected myself from the location (without
> the help of "guides" that steer you to their
> "find site" for a profit.
> I do give accurate find location to scientists and other
> researchers that have a reason to know the accurate GPS
> locations for the tektites that I have found myself or
> persons that I know have found while with me in the field.
>
> I have seen faked find sites in Asia for tektites and am
> sure as long as there is a profit some humans will seek to
> profit from misinformation.
>
> Bogus tektites are usuallsubstituteded slag, black rocks
> or augite that have been intentionally added or were found
> in the field by the locals. In some cases some local
> sellers "specialize" in slag tektites and their
> customers have no idea what a tektite should look like. In
> China, I was shown slag by several dealers- it is not that
> they were perhaps intenionally trying to cheat me- perhaps
> they had never seen a tektite and they were sold the
> material as a tektite. Other cases the dealer knows exactly
> that he is selling slag and it is up to the buyer to buy or
> not. Buyer beware!
>
> Enough of my ramblings; time for sleep after more than a
> day of being awake. IF someone wishes to discuss this topic
> further contact me off list. I am sure Norman can also
> comment on his experiences IF he is computer-available in
> Africa.
>
> Best regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo
>
> BTW: Thank you to all the the some 35 persons that
> contacted me about buying tektites in the past 13+ hours;
> special thanks to the 25+ list members that bought! There
> are still several kilos left if anyone is interested.
>
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 2/13/09, Mark Ford <mark.ford at ssl.gb.com>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Mark Ford <mark.ford at ssl.gb.com>
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bogus indochinites? Are
> they or aren't they?
> > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 8:09 PM
> > I don't think assuming 'no one would bother
> faking
> > something' is the
> > same as meaning they never will, or that something
> else is
> > consiquentaly
> > genuine because of the low likely hood.
> >
> > This is like applying the same logic that some doctors
> use,
> > when they
> > say 'you don't have X wrong with you because
> its
> > 'very unlikely'
> >
> > The market for indochinites world wide is colossal
> there
> > are thousands
> > and thousands of gem shops world wide to sell to,
> believe
> > me they [do]
> > fake tektites, and I doubt most everyday people would
> even
> > know the
> > difference, if they can make a ton of tektites for a
> few
> > dollars then it
> > is worth it. Recycled glass is very cheap...
> >
> > Anyway not wishing to cause panic here, I'm fairly
> > confident 99%+ of
> > tektites are perfectly ok, just be careful buying from
> > people you don't
> > know about is all.
> >
> >
>
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Received on Fri 13 Feb 2009 08:56:42 AM PST