[meteorite-list] Willamette / New Chapter

From: Darryl Pitt <darryl_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 16:29:31 -0500
Message-ID: <2D4CAEC9-BDC8-4B51-84EB-D8EA6D766E64_at_dof3.com>

My Friend....List.....

I do not wish to appear rude, but I will not engage further on this
topic for some time.

As it regards your two emails below....

There is nothing in the settlement which refers to the meteorite being
returned or "returned when practicable." This is sheer invention.
And just do you're on the same page, even a rental would put a
financial value on the specimen---which the Grand Ronde said they
would never do.

I have not experienced bad luck as a result of having been caught in
the Willamette imbroglio. My luck or lack thereof is due a life
filled with debauchery. ;-) Seriously, I know you don't mean to be
offensive, Ed, but it is kind of offensive to speculate on the cause
and effect on the trajectory in a person's life---especially when you
know so little of that life. And bad things do happen to good
people, and you must admit it's myopic and ethnocentric for
attribution to bad news and tragedy to be tethered to your beliefs.

In any event, there is now clarity that specimens of the Willamette
meteorite can be owned free and clear without worry of any legal issues.


All best to you, and to everyone....

.....and best of luck!



On Dec 13, 2009, at 3:22 PM, E.P. Grondine wrote:

> Hi all -
>
> A couple more points to consider:
>
> 1) When considering Willamette, consider how Greece is after the
> British Museum for the Elgin Marbles, and Egypt is after the British
> Museum for the Rosetta Stone and after the Germans for Nefertiti's
> bust. You may not think this applies, but GR is a sovereign nation
> as well (that's why they have the casino). Ordinary US commercial
> law may not apply.
>
> 2) From what I know of practices in the East, about the only use
> parts of slices are appropriate for is for wear around the neck on
> deer skin strings. I don't know if this holds for the GR peoples. It
> might offset the slicing, perhaps Matt may want to contact them
> about this possibility as a way out, but only if all that he had
> were offered, with cost recovery and any profit used appropriately.
>
> 3) Darryl has his view of the GR-AMNH settlement, but it looks to me
> like rent, with the main mass to be returned when practicable. I'm
> no lawyer, but I feel that AMNH kind of left Darryl in a really bad
> spot.
>
> 4) As Darryl has already learned, dealing Native American artifacts
> can bring "Maeche Katet", really bad luck. That's why experienced
> stone artifact collectors never dig graves or village sites, but
> rely on field finds or village sites that are being lost to other
> causes.
>
> If any of you meteorite hunters ever find a meteorite in what turns
> out to be a Native American site during your hunts, perhaps the best
> thing to do would be either to leave it there, or make sure it gets
> into the hands of the sites current caretakers.
>
> 5) As Martin has pointed out, if state or federal laws are put in
> place, it could really cripple meteorite recovery and science.
>
> E.P. Grondine
> Man and Impact in the Americas
>
>

On Dec 13, 2009, at 3:40 PM, E.P. Grondine wrote:

> Hi Darryl -
>
> Since the AMNH was built around the Willamette, and it could not be
> moved without tearing down the building, the agreement reached seems
> reasonable.
>
> But didn't the agreement also include a promise to return the main
> mass when practicable?
>
> As for the Portland Oregonian article, you have to consider AIM as
> well as the GR leadership. If that is not enough, consider that AIM
> has registered chapters and unregistered chapters.
>
> I still feel that the AMNH left you holding the bag, and I wish
> everyone the best of luck in coming to a good resolution.
>
> Ed






>
> --- On Fri, 12/11/09, Darryl Pitt <darryl at dof3.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Darryl Pitt <darryl at dof3.com>
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Willamette / New Chapter
>> To: "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: mail at mhmeteorites.com, meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>> , "Adam List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>, countdeiro at earthlink.net
>> , "Steve Dunklee" <sdunklee72520 at yahoo.com>, "Jason Utas" <meteoritekid at gmail.com
>> >
>> Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 12:49 PM
>> E.P.,
>>
>> Steve's explanation is speculation, and I don't agree that
>> speculating as to possible motives is the way to proceed
>> here. New problems and misunderstandings will be
>> created---as if there haven't been enough already.
>> ;-) And while I appreciate your support, it
>> also really is not accurate to state that future purchasers
>> are left hanging in the wind.
>>
>> And so....
>>
>> BRIEF RECENT LEGAL HISTORY OF THE WILLAMETTE METEORITE --
>> WITH A NEW CHAPTER FOR WILLAMETTE HISTORY BUFFS
>>
>>
>> In 1999, the Confederated Tribes of the Grand Ronde filed a
>> NAGPRA (Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation
>> Act) claim to have the Willamette meteorite returned to
>> Oregon. In a written statement, Tracy Dugan, a
>> spokeswoman for the Grand Ronde explained, "The Confederated
>> Tribes is shocked that the American Museum of Natural
>> History insists upon illegally keeping this important sacred
>> object which belongs to the history and culture of the Grand
>> Ronde Tribes." It was further written in the NAGPRA
>> claim, "The only acceptable resolution of this matter will
>> be through the unconditional repatriation of the Willamette
>> Meteorite."
>>
>> In 2000, the American Museum of Natural History did not
>> address the NAGPRA claim and instead filed a lawsuit in
>> federal court against the Grand Ronde requesting a
>> declaratory judgement. In the Museum's claim, it was
>> stated that this matter does not fit the parameters of a
>> NAGPRA case.
>>
>> Months later the parties settled. The meteorite remained
>> where it was and the Museum provided the Grand Ronde
>> signage, paid internships and an annual private visit.
>>
>> In 2007, just prior to the Bonhams auction in which the
>> crown section of Willamette was being offered, an editorial
>> appeared in the Portland Oregonian, which stated:
>>
>> "The Grand Ronde don't have time before this month's
>> auction to file a claim for return of the piece in Pitt's
>> possession, but potential buyers ought to beware: There just
>> might be a lawsuit looming. It would seem to us the
>> Grand Ronde tribes have an extremely strong case under the
>> 1990 federal law intended to help Native Americans reclaim
>> cultural and religious objects. Whoever
>> buys the precious chunk of meteorite should consider
>> offering a settlement like the museum did. And they should
>> promise never to cut the sacred piece of Tomanowos."
>>
>> I was outraged.
>>
>> 1. The Oregonian stated that the "museum offered a
>> settlement," and nothing could be further from the
>> truth. The museum sued the Grand Ronde in federal
>> court in response to the Grand Ronde's NAGPRA claim, and the
>> Grand Ronde backed off their claim.
>>
>> 2. As the Grand Ronde stated in their NAGPRA claim
>> that the only solution was the "unconditional repatriation"
>> of the meteorite, and as this did not occur, how is it that
>> the largest newspaper in Oregon could state that the Grand
>> Ronde suddenly had a strong case?
>>
>> 3. The notion of "not having enough time" to file
>> additional legal action was also fatuous. The Grand
>> Ronde was aware of my possession of this meteorite specimen
>> for at least five years. In addition, I publicly auctioned
>> many other specimens, sales which were extensively covered
>> by the media--which included statements by the Grand
>> Ronde--without a lawsuit or a threat of a lawsuit;
>>
>> 4. Who was the Oregonian's source about there not
>> being enough time to file legal action? It would have
>> to be someone at the Grand Ronde, right? But the Grand
>> Ronde stated on their website there would be no legal
>> action. Could this "editorial" have been phoned in by
>> a rogue tribe member with clout?
>>
>> Did I mention that the Grand Ronde is the Portland
>> Oregonian's largest advertiser?
>>
>> Two days later the newspaper published an apology for their
>> false claims and issued a retraction, "The Grand Ronde has
>> no intention of filing a lawsuit." The Grand Ronde
>> also stated, "Legal action was never contemplated, and there
>> will be no action taken."
>>
>> As the Portland Oregonian attacked me for a "lack of
>> class," I publicly suggested that given the string of
>> untruthful statements made by the newspaper, and in light of
>> the ad revenues provided by the Grand Ronde which enrich the
>> newspaper, it seemed clear that if the Portland Oregonian
>> had any class, they would acquire the specimen and provide
>> it to the Grand Ronde.
>>
>> The Portland Oregonian made no effort to do so.
>>
>> All best / Darryl
>>
>> And now I need to make the effort to not address this any
>> further for at least the next several months ;-)
>
>> On Dec 11, 2009, at 10:43 AM, E.P. Grondine wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Steve -
>>>
>>> You may have it, what the GR lawyers and leaders are
>> thinking. In any case, the AMNH left Darryl hanging in the
>> wind, AS WELL AS ANY FUTURE PURCHASERS.
>>>
>>> PS - Jason, I hope Steve's explanation makes this
>> clearer to you.
>>>
>>> I also hope an honorable and acceptable way out
>> appears. I hope the AMNH steps up to the plate.
>>>
>>> E.P. Grondine
>>> Man and Impact in the Americas
>>>
>>> --- On Fri, 12/11/09, Steve Dunklee <sdunklee72520 at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Steve Dunklee <sdunklee72520 at yahoo.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Willamette
>>>> Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 3:37 AM
>>>
>>>> The GR most likely did not respond
>>>> due to the nature of the current legal process. I
>> would
>>>> compare it to buying your stolen item from a pawn
>> shop. the
>>>> pawn shop did not know the item was hot and made a
>> legal
>>>> purchase. which would also place a monetary value
>> on the
>>>> main mass. They can not buy a piece without
>> putting thier
>>>> claim to the main mass in jeopardy. there may also
>> be a gag
>>>> order in the case by the Judge which would prevent
>> them from
>>>> responding.
>>>
>>>> instead of trying to have the GR buy the piece it
>>>> should be returned to the seller with a request
>> for a
>>>> refund, as the original sale/trade was illegal.
>>>
>>>> its like sayinmg to them "hey i just bought your
>> stolen car! would you like to buy it back?"
>>>
>>>> have a great day
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> --- On Thu, 12/10/09, E.P. Grondine <epgrondine at yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From: E.P. Grondine <epgrondine at yahoo.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Willamette
>>>>> To: mail at mhmeteorites.com,
>>>> meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com,
>>>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com,
>>>> countdeiro at earthlink.net
>>>>> Date: Thursday, December 10, 2009, 9:29 AM
>>>>> Matt -
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my opinion but it is likely that the
>> slicing was
>>>> a
>>>>> further desecration in their view, so their
>> lack of
>>>> response
>>>>> comes as no surprise.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think Count Deiro's advice is very
>> good. I
>>>> would
>>>>> suggest contacting them again - perhaps parts
>> of the
>>>> slice
>>>>> could be used by them in an appropriate
>> manner.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ed
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Wed, 12/9/09, countdeiro at earthlink.net
>>>>> <countdeiro at earthlink.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: countdeiro at earthlink.net
>>>>> <countdeiro at earthlink.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Willamette
>>>>>> To: mail at mhmeteorites.com,
>>>>> "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com>,
>>>>> meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com,
>>>>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 11:11
>> PM
>>>>>> The Grand Ronde band of American
>>>>>> Indians own the largest and most
>> profitable
>>>>> hotel/casino in
>>>>>> Oregon. Anybody who is at least 1/8th GR
>> gets a
>>>>> percentage
>>>>>> every month . I wouldn't bother either.
>>>>>> Count Deiro
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Matt Morgan <mail at mhmeteorites.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Dec 9, 2009 11:04 PM
>>>>>>> To: "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com>,
>>>>>> meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com,
>>>>>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]
>> Willamette
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FYI, I offered the GR a generous slice
>> of my
>>>>> Willamette
>>>>>> and they didn't even respond to me.
>> If I were
>>>>> Darryl,
>>>>>> I wouldn't even bother.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matt Morgan
>>>>>>> ------Original Message------
>>>>>>> From: E.P. Grondine
>>>>>>> Sender: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]
>> Willamette
>>>>>>> Sent: Dec 9, 2009 8:44 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Darryl -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> May I suggest to you that perhaps it
>> would be
>>>> best
>>>>> to
>>>>>> find a buyer for the Willamette piece who
>> wanted
>>>> a tax
>>>>> write
>>>>>> off for gifting it back to the Grand
>> Ronde
>>>> peoples? I
>>>>> don't
>>>>>> know their financial situation, or plans,
>> but I
>>>> would
>>>>>> suggest contacting their elders as well
>> before
>>>> doing
>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> E.P. Grondine
>>>>>>> Man and Impact in the Americas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Received on Sun 13 Dec 2009 04:29:31 PM PST