[meteorite-list] Kem-Kem was never the generic for NWA

From: Jeff Grossman <jgrossman_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 10:45:43 -0400
Message-ID: <4A86CA17.50800_at_usgs.gov>

cdtucson at cox.net wrote:
> Jeff, et al,
> Thank you for that Jeff.
> I see from a Macovich auction back in Feb. 4, 2001 that there is another confusing series. The Sahara ***** series. Some of them show up in the bulletin and some don't.
> http://www.woreczko.pl/meteorites/sale/AuctionMacovich-Tucson2001.pdf
> Entries 8 thru 12
> Auction item number 8 does not show up with the posted designation "Sahara 85001 but it does show up as NWA 1242 in the bulletin. However it does not reference the thing back to originally being Sahara 85001 as seen in Auction.
>
As far as I am aware, nobody has ever asked this before. It was my
understanding that the Labennes found all of their Sahara meteorites,
whereas NWA 1242 has a specific story. Are we sure these are the same?
> Another of the missing Saharans is Sahara 97119. as seen as item number 10 in the same auction. What ever happened with this one?
>
Many Labenne meteorite have never been classified. They numbered them
in their own way, without NomCom involvement, so we have never even been
able to list provisional names for these.
> This same auction does list only one NWA meteorite NWA 108 and no listings of any Kem-Kem.
> This leads me to another question. Why do we even care where these things fell? Unless they made a crater or are being mapped for some odd reason or did something else that is extraordinary. What difference does it make where they landed anyway??? On that note it seems an awful lot of importance is placed on coordinates. Is there really anything left to be learned by where they land? I mean we know they land where they land. Okay.
> Another reason I ask this is because we are basically forced to give up our new found treasure spot for what seems to be a very insignificant reason.
>
What you are basically saying here is that science will never care about
the coordinates. But you can't know that. Important questions
involving pairings do arise and are often resolved with geographic
information. In addition, you never know which meteorites will turn out
to be important. If collectors treat the coordinates as their personal
property and take them to their graves, science stands to permanently
lose the opportunity to obtain additional research material. I have no
problem with collectors withholding their information until they have
had adequate opportunity to conclude a search. But I consider it
irresponsible to hide the information for many years or decades or
longer. As I've said many times, there is a delicate, mutually
beneficial relationship between science and commercialism in
meteorites. If people treat meteorites as solely commercial products,
the relationship breaks down and there will be negative consequences to all.

jeff
> This same question was posed recently. "Would you give up the location of a cache of gold that you found"? Of course not. So, why would you tell where your meteorite worth more than gold fell? That would be silly wouldn't it? Yet, I read the other day that science needs to do some very early testing on recent falls. My thought is okay do the testing and I will tell you where it fell later. Maybe Much later.
> As you can see here I believe there is more harm in telling where these fall than by not telling. Telling creates a lot of negative stuff on this list.
> Look no farther than Admire, AZ's most recent and West etc. No good came of this knowledge. In fact these falls/ finds have caused irreparable damage to this industry if not just it's hunters. What do you say. lets get rid of this useless requirement or at least make it merely a voluntary addition.?
> Thanks
> Just my 2 cents .
> Carl
>
>
> --
> Carl or Debbie Esparza
> IMCA 5829
> Meteoritemax
>
>
> ---- Jeff Grossman <jgrossman at usgs.gov> wrote:
>
>> The Kem Kem meteorites from Casper were a trigger for the NomCom
>> approving the NWA designation, which was my coinage in January
>> 2000. But to really understand the history, you need to go back a
>> few years earlier, to El Hammami (aka Hamada du Draa), which was the
>> first case for which the NomCom became aware that meteorites were
>> being transported and sold in this region. With this history, plus a
>> series of inquiries from other dealers about the Kem Kem meteorites,
>> compounded by our inability to learn many details about those
>> meteorites from Casper, we needed to take action of some kind. We
>> decided on a generic term, Northwest Africa, that could be applied as
>> a "tracking" label to all stones, even ones that had not been
>> classified, so that individual meteorites would not be divided and
>> sold under multiple names. We also had no ability to investigate
>> multiple vague or anonymous claims about meteorite provenance in the
>> region. Thus it was decided that all of these meteorites would be
>> named NWA, even those that had been classified. I'm not sure what
>> ever happened to the Kem Kems that triggered the whole thing. Since
>> I don't think Casper ever numbered them, there were no synonyms to
>> publish, assuming they eventually became NWAs.
>>
>> jeff
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> At 01:02 AM 8/10/2009, Jason Utas wrote:
>>
>>> Dirk, Brian, All,
>>> This came up on the list a while back; from what I understood, Casper
>>> sold those as well as a number of other stones under that name around
>>> that time, and only classified one stone, before grouping a number of
>>> similar-looking meteorites together under that name (I believe the
>>> mentality was that of the meteorite-world pior to the NWA rush, where
>>> not every piece had to be classified to verify its composition). And
>>> while not every piece does have to be classified in many cases, this,
>>> I believe, was a situation in which things were not made certain. I
>>> never got the catalog at the time, bit I do recall there being some
>>> consternation as meteorites were being misclassified/misnamed.
>>> Hence the confusion, as the name applies to a number of late 1990's
>>> NWA meteorites which came out of the area via Casper. I might only
>>> call it a generic name at this point because it is a name that applies
>>> to a number of petrographically distinct meteorites. Single name,
>>> unknown number of meteorites. I don't know if it quite fits the
>>> definition of the word "generic," but if it doesn't, it's not far off.
>>> Regards,
>>> Jason
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 9:52 PM, drtanuki<drtanuki at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Brian and List,
>>>> Brian your are incorrect in your history lesson.
>>>> Michael Casper announced in his December 1999 catalogue that "a
>>>>
>>> new find out of Morocco- Kem-Kem" was "Found in August, 1999.
>>> Stone. Classification pending. Kem Kem, Dahara, Morocco". Casper`s
>>> catalogue lists:
>>>
>>>> 22.4g _at_ $44.80;
>>>> 26.9g_at_ $53.80
>>>> 31.5g_at_ $63.00
>>>> 33.5g_at_ $67.00
>>>> 41.0g_at_ $82.00
>>>> 46.8g_at_ $93.60
>>>> 53.2g_at_ $106.40
>>>> 58.6g_at_ $117.20
>>>> 67.4g_at_ $134.80
>>>> 70.0g_at_ $140.00
>>>> 83.1g_at_ $166.20
>>>> 114.9g_at_ $229.80
>>>> 153.6g_at_ $307.20
>>>>
>>>> In the same catalogue, he (Casper) has a multi-kilo piece
>>>>
>>> photographed, which I purchased. Kem-Kem was NOT a catch-all term
>>> for the meteorites of NWA (Moroc/Algeria) at the time, as you wrote.
>>>
>>>> So please do not confuse the messy history of the NWAs by
>>>>
>>> INCORRECTLY calling Kem-Kem the orginal generic name before NWAs.
>>>
>>>> I was in Morocco in December 2000- January 2001 for six weeks
>>>>
>>> and at Kem-Kem prior/during the sale of NWA482 in the year of the
>>> planetary alignment and eclipse... there were UK-Euro-hippies by
>>> the busloads for the huge festival and arrested development.
>>>
>>>> The only great "hunter" that I ran into while I was there was
>>>>
>>> Dean Bessey in his Fiat at Merzouga (he dismounted his for shade);
>>> prior to Bessey Specks perhaps not?
>>>
>>>> Missed seeing Mike Farmer, Strope and others; but, I did spot a
>>>>
>>> mad German or Austrian at the petrol stop during the heat of the
>>> day. Also missed the Great Habibi!
>>>
>>>> When in Erfoud don`t miss out on the daily variety of Targine
>>>>
>>> beef, mutton or chicken and 30 glasses of mint tea.
>>>
>>>> At the end of six weeks of wearing Berber you will be
>>>>
>>> blue...Idir met Idir et Kem-Kem! Truly an awesome experience to be
>>> at Kem-Kem at SunSet on top of a tall hill and watch the winter shadows fall.
>>>
>>>> Forget the Berber Shave and stick with Burma Shave if you are
>>>>
>>> searchingforfun.
>>>
>>>> Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Mon, 8/10/09, Brian Cox <searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: Brian Cox <searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Kem Kem, the original generic name
>>>>>
>>> before NWAs, Northwest African meteorites
>>>
>>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2009, 12:02 PM
>>>>> Here is a link to my 19.7 gram Kem
>>>>> Kem meteorite specimen, originally from Planet Brey
>>>>> meteorites about 9-10 years ago. Kem Kem was the name that
>>>>> was used approximately between 1999-2001, I was told, from
>>>>> our fellow history buffs on the list and other IMCA members
>>>>> for what we now call "NWAs" "Northwest African" meteorites.
>>>>>
>>>>> I added a photo of the original COA/card from Planet Brey
>>>>> just now in this auction.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/KEM-KEM-Meteorite-19-7g-IMCA-COA-Unclass-Probably-H5_W0QQitemZ270440268847QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ef77f042f&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, and clear happy meteorite filled skies tonight!
>>>>>
>>>>> Brian
>>>>>
>>>>> IMCA # 6387
>>>>>
>>>>> searchingforfun is my
>>>>> ebay User ID
>>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>> Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184
>> US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383
>> 954 National Center
>> Reston, VA 20192, USA
>>
>>
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>
>

-- 
Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman       phone: (703) 648-6184
US Geological Survey          fax:   (703) 648-6383
954 National Center
Reston, VA 20192, USA

Received on Sat 15 Aug 2009 10:45:43 AM PDT