[meteorite-list] WG: NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes Sample, Arm Digs Deeper
From: mexicodoug at aim.com <mexicodoug_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:23:30 -0400 Message-ID: <8CA9F984EB4E7CA-17D8-B83_at_WEBMAIL-DC16.sysops.aol.com> "to me the space agencies seem to be like, like... let's say marine biologists, who tell yaaah let's built one fancy diving robot after the other, we like marine organisms, fishes and stuff! But water? Why should be water interesting for us, what has water to do with our subcject???" Hi Martin, I would modify that example for the Marine Biologist parody, I would say you are asking much of a few distorted 1.3 billion year old catfish fossils from the same brood, and a single 4 billion year old distorted fossil shark's tooth. And then from that, hoping to extrapolate how the entire oceanic and riparian ecosystems evolved to be what they are today on Earth. A geologist (or Areologist) is usually interested in studying the context of his find. Like you, I am a strong supporter of the study of SNC's and of space missions. Happily, a Google of the terms: Mars meteorite NASA gave aboout 144,000 hits and the three terms Mars Meteorite ESA gave about 31,000 hits. For comparison a Google of the two terms: Mars meteorite gave only 193,000 hits. It would seem to me that the space agencies are not so mute on Mars meteorites as you would say! Unless of course, those are all Martinoid complaints ... Like a fish in a fishbowl, you are, not able to perceive it is floating in water, water everywhere ... Science has thankfully analyzed the heck out of the Mars meteorites we have and there are many experts in our midst who have done that who owe a portion of their livelyhood to NASA grants. If any commercial hatcheries can propose how to prepare some delicious catfish in a way not already tried, please propose it to researchers (many of whom have financial ties to NASA or the ESA) and I am certain someone will buy up all the catfish needed to learn anything new. Meanwhile, you gotta be pretty amazed at the wonderful science going on as the geological context of Mars is unwrapped piece by piece, in situ and in real time. That doesn't mean we all can't stand to enjoy a bit more catfish from time to time, hopefully to be washed down with a healthy portion of what is discovered by the thirst for more knowledge. And between me and you and the wall, if given the opportunity to control a spacecraft from another planet to explore its geological structure, vs. buy the same delicious catfish and shark's tooth from reputable local meteorite battered fish & chips joint, and hope to discover a modern Martian cephalopod complete in its whole life cycle and environment falling out of the Mass Spec machine as a result, well, I'd have my activity preference ... :) Best wishes, Doug -----Original Message----- From: Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 1:47 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] WG: NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes Sample, Arm Digs Deeper Hi Larry, without any doubt! I didn't tell, that we shouldn't fly to Mars or that we shouldn't send space probes there, there was no "instead of". In fact I'm a great fan of planetary missions, and not least the Viking missions had a certain contribution, that I have now my own Mars :-) I'm only always baffled, that the space agencies aren't interested in SNCs at all! I mean, you see, the methods and devices to analyze rocks in situ on a different planet are limited. It is expensive to send robots there and the risk of failure is high. If I'm interested in exploring Mars, why should I then do the research without the samples from Mars I have already here on Earth, where I have no risks to take, which are thousands and thousands times cheaper, then the sniff a rover can take of a rock on the surface of Mars, and - which is most important -, whereon I can apply my whole arsenal of techniques and methods in my lab? Remember back, why NASA built up before Apollo a reference collection of Moon-like rocks, why Shoemaker trained the astronauts in th Ries Crater to pick up the right stuff? See. And there they had the problem, that NO lunar rock was known on Earth at that time. Now to have all those Mars missions, but to ignore the SNC meteorites, Well Larry, to me the space agencies seem to be like, like... let's say marine biologists, who tell yaaah let's built one fancy diving robot after the other, we like marine organisms, fishes and stuff! But water? Why should be water interesting for us, what has water to do with our subcject??? Well, and if I read, that ESA spends funds in collecting Earth-rocks, which are similar to Mars rocks, and is studying them in their labs... Larry, what would be the outcome, if there would be a poll: Hey German taxpayer: ESA wants to learn about Mars rocks, shall they spend the 3$, each of you is paying to ESA each year, for sending people around the globe, to collect earthly stones to analyse them, or shall they rather buy for your money real Mars rocks, which would cost the same? Hmmmmmmmmm....... Martin Doe -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Juni 2008 20:04 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] WG: NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes Sample, Arm Digs Deeper Hello Martin: But there are several reasons for going there: 1. You actually know where the sample came from (not true for the meteorite). 2. To get a meteorite takes a little energy, so "stuff happens" to a Mars rock that does not happen to a pristine soil sample on Mars. 3. If you are looking for water (or water ice or carbon dioxide ice) as part of an initial search for life on Mars, again, you need to know where your sample has come from and that it has not been bashed by an impact, been in space for a few million years, gone through Earth's atmosphere, and then sat on Earth for some unknown length of time. Ideally, you want to get samples from a number of places and bring them back to Earth, but that gets a little more expensive. And you are up against ICAMSR (International Committee against Mars Sample Return) (those Mars bugs are going to get you). For your information, the Mars rovers cost just over $800 million (build a second for about half the cost of one). The "next generation" Mars lander, Mars Science Laboratory, is running $1.2 billion (20% over budget) and behind schedule. This is problem since nothing can be done to get Mars to wait for the Lab to get launched. If it cannot be launched on time, there is a delay of something like 18 months for the next opportunity. In this respect, Phoenix is cheap. Larry On Wed, June 18, 2008 8:57 am, Martin Altmann wrote: > > Hmm Sterling, > > > assumed that I'm not so intelligent, I have a question, which is > bothering me: aside from the achievements and recoveries such a mission > like the Phoenix lander means, > I wonder - well how shall I say - but given the $386,000,000 and not to > mention, what for means a successful sample-return-mission would consume > - > I wonder why NASA is not interested in baking Martian soils and rocks from > many different places on Mars in terrestrial ovens for let's say $30,000 > or something around that sum, (Hey NASA has an a n n u a l budget of > $17,000,000,000 > All SNCs found so far would cost, let's say > $40,000,000 > to make all happy) and I wonder whether the American taxpayer would agree > more to such an expense. > > Strange in my blear eyes is too, that ESA is sending out employees to far > corners of the World, to collect terrestrial analogs to Martian rocks to > analyse and research them, but on the other hand they have no reference > collection of Martian meteorites to work on, although such a collection > currently would cost them less, then the plane tickets for the guys sent > to collect Martian look-a-likes. > > In my na?ve point of view, I was thinking, that it could be a fundamental > and elemental building block of scientific exploration of Planet Mars to > investigate that matter, those rocks from there, we already have here on > Earth? > (as told, maybe I'm to stupid.. but on the other hand, perhaps the quality > of the training and schooling of those guys at NASA, IAXA, ESA had a few > gaps, so that they simply don't know, that we already do have some > Martian > rocks here on Earth? At least I think it is problematical to propagate the > scientific mandate of these organizations to explore Planet Mars and the > necessity of those hefty expenses, but to neglect that simple and > cost-efficient, but nevertheless very important domain of researching the > Martian meteorites - it isn't plausible to public in no way, happily > most of the taxpayers don't know, that there exist meteorites from Mars, > hehe). > > See you all in Ensiheim! > Martin > > > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von > Sterling > K. Webb > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Juni 2008 08:52 > An: Pete Shugar; Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; mexicodoug at aim.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes Sample,Arm Digs > Deeper > > > Hi, Pete, List, > > > This mission was named Phoenix in recognition > of the fact that like the mythical Phoenix, it rose from the ashes of the > dead! Once upon a time, there were two Mars missions that died: the 2001 > Mars Surveyor > lander was cancelled in 2000, and the Mars Polar Lander was lost on Mars in > 1999. > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Received on Wed 18 Jun 2008 04:23:30 PM PDT |
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