[meteorite-list] WG: NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes Sample, Arm Digs Deeper
From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:57:41 +0200 Message-ID: <00b801c8d15c$0a59c1b0$177f2a59_at_name86d88d87e2> Hmm Sterling, assumed that I'm not so intelligent, I have a question, which is bothering me: aside from the achievements and recoveries such a mission like the Phoenix lander means, I wonder - well how shall I say - but given the $386,000,000 and not to mention, what for means a successful sample-return-mission would consume - I wonder why NASA is not interested in baking Martian soils and rocks from many different places on Mars in terrestrial ovens for let's say $30,000 or something around that sum, (Hey NASA has an a n n u a l budget of $17,000,000,000 All SNCs found so far would cost, let's say $40,000,000 to make all happy) and I wonder whether the American taxpayer would agree more to such an expense. Strange in my blear eyes is too, that ESA is sending out employees to far corners of the World, to collect terrestrial analogs to Martian rocks to analyse and research them, but on the other hand they have no reference collection of Martian meteorites to work on, although such a collection currently would cost them less, then the plane tickets for the guys sent to collect Martian look-a-likes. In my na?ve point of view, I was thinking, that it could be a fundamental and elemental building block of scientific exploration of Planet Mars to investigate that matter, those rocks from there, we already have here on Earth? (as told, maybe I'm to stupid.. but on the other hand, perhaps the quality of the training and schooling of those guys at NASA, IAXA, ESA had a few gaps, so that they simply don't know, that we already do have some Martian rocks here on Earth? At least I think it is problematical to propagate the scientific mandate of these organizations to explore Planet Mars and the necessity of those hefty expenses, but to neglect that simple and cost-efficient, but nevertheless very important domain of researching the Martian meteorites - it isn't plausible to public in no way, happily most of the taxpayers don't know, that there exist meteorites from Mars, hehe). See you all in Ensiheim! Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Sterling K. Webb Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Juni 2008 08:52 An: Pete Shugar; Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; mexicodoug at aim.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes Sample,Arm Digs Deeper Hi, Pete, List, This mission was named Phoenix in recognition of the fact that like the mythical Phoenix, it rose from the ashes of the dead! Once upon a time, there were two Mars missions that died: the 2001 Mars Surveyor lander was cancelled in 2000, and the Mars Polar Lander was lost on Mars in 1999. Demonstrating the inscrutable wisdom that politicians, beaurocrats, and authorities often possess that we lowly groundlings lack, the 2001 Mars Surveyor Lander was canceled after it was already built and paid for. (Anybody remember the Superconducting Super Collider?) At any rate, the 2001 Mars Surveyor Lander had been kept in storage at Lockheed Martin clean room in Sunnyvale. And there were extra "stay-at-home" duplicates of some instruments for the Polar Lander, and there was a bit here and there, and there were projects without a vehicle or hope of getting another one... Upshot: for a lousy $386 million, which includes the launch and all tips for room service, You The Taxpayer get a whole new Mars Mission. Quit whining. For comparison, we spend $343 million each and every day in Iraq doing whatever it is that we're doing there. Actually, I lied. Phoenix needed an extra $31 million beyond the budget of $386 million and was almost cancelled over it. The altimeter was from the Mars Polar Lander (you know, the one that crashed). It seems that, hmm... a faulty altimeter may have been to blame for that. It's taken from the one used in F-16 fighter planes. Some software problems on the F-16 altimeter were fixed, but the altimeter for Phoenix did not get the software upgrade. They spent about six months fixing the gizmo, driving up costs. And, hey! It worked, didn't it? Additionally, they had to pay for searching for a boulder-free landing spot, using the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter which, yes, charges for its services, even to other missions, because every spot they picked had boulders. There's a helluva lot of boulders on Mars... <quote> The partnership developing the Phoenix mission includes: the University of Arizona, NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Lockheed Martin Space Systems in Denver and the Canadian Space Agency, which is providing weather instruments. Peter H. Smith of the University of Arizona, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory heads the Phoenix mission. <unquote> Thanks. Born from the ashes it may be, but Phoenix will die in the cold. It's going into summer in the Martian Arctic; the mission lifetime is about 150 days. Phoenix won't survive winter. I also notice news people describing the Phoenix as having landed at Mars's "North Pole," even people on this List. If you were aliens going to land on Earth, would you land on the dead center of Antarctica? Why? Phoenix is on the southern edge of the "Boreal Vastness" (translating from the Latin name); it is above the Martian Arctic Circle, barely (68.35 deg North). For a location comparison by latitude, think of landing in the Northwest Territories of Canada. The "Boreal Vastness" is a flat featureless low-lying that covers about the upper third of Mars; many think it is an ancient sea bed. Your criticisms might be to the point if we belonged to a species and lived in a culture that made rational and intelligent long-term plans to do the things that are truly essential and important to them. If you know of such a place, let me know. I sincerely hope you can convince somebody to land a multi-ton rompin' rover with nuclear eight-wheel drive, power take-off drills on both ends, linear laboratory analysis machines with continuous pass-through of Martian samples and 18 experiments online in each one (let's have four of'em) and a sample return rocket that sends 100 kg of Martian samples up to Martian orbit to be returned to Earth. Let's have two, if you're in the mood... Sterling K. Webb --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Shugar" <pshugar at clearwire.net> To: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; <mexicodoug at aim.com> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes Sample,Arm Digs Deeper I agree that we have learned tons more than what we did know. What I am wondering is if the lander can move to new locations or will it be only at this one location. Otherwise we will learn a lot about a very small patch of Mars. I think the other 2 rovers will provide more science due to examining many places instead of just the one small patch of Mars that will checked. I agree it will be very a intensive in depth look at a small spot. It may sound as an aggressive criticism for your taste, but that is a truth. If the Lander could move to new locations and dump it's ovens for use in new experiments we would have generated a larger amount of science. Maybe it's just that I'm not as up on this probe as I am on the other two. Pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <mexicodoug at aim.com> To: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes Sample,Arm Digs Deeper > "I guess that means only 8 experiments and then it becomes a high dollar > garbage can.." > > Pete, "only?" "high dollar garbage can?"?? That sounds a bit too > aggressive of a criticism for my taste in light of the historic > accomplishments in progress on the frigid Polar surface of Mars. > > Have you ever cleaned out an oven? Decontaminated it without having any > water or liquids? I guess NASA preferred not to wrap the baked goods in > aluminum baggies and not make the Mars under the lander a garbage heap of > disposable crap and contaminating solvents. I'm not critical of that. > > I don't what you are thinking, but 8 oven cycles sounds like 8 times > infinity more quality oven time than "we" had before. > > Best wishes, > Doug > PS Speaking about learning to clean out the oven, I recommend to you the > comedy movie, "A Day without a Mexican", and think Mars instead of > California :) If that is too testy, how 'bout "To Build a Fire" by Jack > London? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Shugar <pshugar at clearwire.net> > To: Mike Bandli <fuzzfoot at comcast.net>; 'Ron Baalke' > <baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov>; 'Meteorite Mailing List' > <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> > Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 6:26 pm > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes Sample, Arm Digs > Deeper > > > I guess that means only 8 experiments and then it becomes a high dollar > garbage can.. Pete > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bandli" <fuzzfoot at comcast.net> > To: "'Pete Shugar'" <pshugar at clearwire.net>; "'Ron Baalke'" > <baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov>; "'Meteorite Mailing List'" > <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:20 PM > Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes Sample,Arm Digs > Deeper >> Hi Pete, Unfortunately, all eight of the ovens cannot be emptied or >> re-used > for > other >> tests. I believe I remember hearing it had something to do with > saving >> weight on the craft. Best, Mike Bandli -----Original Message----- >> From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com >> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of > Pete >> Shugar Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 12:40 PM To: Ron Baalke; Meteorite >> Mailing List Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Phoenix Lander Bakes >> Sample,Arm > Digs >> Deeper My question is: If there are only 8 ovens on the Lander, what >> happens when they are all full? Is there a provision to dump the ovens >> and reuse them? Pete ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Baalke" > <baalke at zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> >> To: "Meteorite Mailing List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> Sent: >> Tuesday, June 17, 2008 12:54 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA Phoenix >> Lander Bakes Sample, Arm Digs Deeper >>> >>> http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2008-111b NASA Phoenix >>> Lander Bakes Sample, Arm Digs Deeper Jet Propulsion Laboratory June 16, >>> 2008 TUCSON, Ariz. -- One of the ovens on NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander >>> continued baking its first sample of Martian soil over the weekend, >>> while the Robotic Arm dug deeper into the soil to learn more about > white >>> material first revealed on June 3. "The oven is working very well and >>> living up to our expectations," > said >>> Phoenix co-investigator Bill Boynton of the University of Arizona, >>> Tucson. Boynton leads the Thermal and Evolved-Gas Analyzer (TEGA), > or >>> oven instrument, for Phoenix. Phoenix has eight separate tiny ovens to >>> bake and sniff the soil and look for volatile ingredients, such as >>> water. This baking is > performed >>> at three different temperature ranges. On Sol 18 (June 12), the lander's >>> Robotic Arm dug deeper into the > two >>> trenches, informally called "Dodo" and "Goldilocks," where white >>> material was previously found. This created one large trench, now > called >>> "Dodo-Goldilocks." "We have continued to excavate in the Dodo-Goldilocks >>> trench to > expose >>> more of the light-toned material, and we will monitor the site," > said >>> Robotic Arm lead scientist Ray Arvidson of the University of > Washington, >>> St. Louis. "If the material is ice, it should change with time. > Frost >>> may form on it, or it could slowly sublimate." Sublimation is the >>> process where a solid changes directly into gas. The Dodo-Goldilocks >>> trench is 22 centimeters wide (8.7 inches) and > 35 >>> centimeters long (13.8 inches). The trench is seven to eight > centimeters >>> (2.7 to 3 inches) deep at its deepest. The deepest portion is > closest to >>> the lander. The white material is located only at the shallowest part of >>> the > trench, >>> farthest from the lander, indicating that it is not continuous >>> throughout the excavated site. The trench might be exposing a ledge, > or >>> only a portion of a slab, of the white material, according to > scientists. >>> >>> The Phoenix mission is led by Peter Smith with project management at > JPL >>> and development partnership at Lockheed Martin, located in Denver. >>> International contributions come from the Canadian Space Agency; the >>> University of Neuchatel, Switzerland; the universities of Copenhagen > and >>> Aarhus, Denmark; Max Planck Institute, Germany; and the Finnish >>> Meteorological Institute. For more about Phoenix, visit: >>> http://www.nasa.gov/phoenix and http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> >>> Media contacts: Guy Webster 818-354-6278 Jet Propulsion Laboratory, >>> Pasadena, Calif. guy.webster at jpl.nasa.gov Dwayne Brown 202-358-1726 NASA >>> Headquarters, Washington dwayne.c.brown at nasa.gov Sara Hammond >>> 520-626-1974 University of Arizona, Tucson shammond at lpl.arizona.edu >>> ______________________________________________ >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> ______________________________________________ >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Received on Wed 18 Jun 2008 11:57:41 AM PDT |
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