[meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion

From: Greg Hupe <gmhupe_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:00:37 -0000
Message-ID: <008a01c85f63$066e92d0$0200a8c0_at_Gregor>

Hello Martin, Zelimir and List,

Your efforts with the ACAP (Lodranite?) new classification is appreciated by
all I am sure. I can say that NWA 4478, the Brecciated Lodranite I have, is
not paired to the large list of re-classified ACAPs you have put together.
First, NWA 4478 is a low metal type and brecciated.

A quick comparison to the NWA 4236 photos you posted for Andi:
1) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco1.jpg
2) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco2.jpg

NWA 4478 Brecciated Lodranite (Easily not paired to the large ACAP
'Lodranite?' grouping):
http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4478/nwa4478slice.jpg
Sentence from NWA 4478 classification:, "The modal abundance of metal (+
limonite after primary metal) measured by BSE imaging on a large polished
slice is 5 vol.%."

I think it is imperative to have Ted Bunch at NAU re-examine all of the
ACAPs in the grouping and do a side-by-side study, this would truly be the
best way to determine pairings and if they are lodranites.

I hope this helps a little.

Best regards,
Greg

====================
Greg Hupe
The Hupe Collection
NaturesVault (eBay)
gmhupe at htn.net
www.LunarRock.com
IMCA 3163
====================
Click here for my current eBay auctions:
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault

----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
To: "'Zelimir Gabelica'" <Zelimir.Gabelica at uha.fr>;
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion


Hi Zelimir,

that almost all those Acaps and now lodranites (yippie) belong together, we
reconstructed all together here on the list a while back, guess 1-2 years
ago.
(Also finding out, that it's quite unlikely compared to the very few
Antarctic Acap-groups, the fall stats and the find stats, that there
suddenly should appear a dozen different ACAPs from Sahara).

Therefore I invited now all involved, that we should try to set the pieces
of the puzzle together as far as we can - hopefully without animosities, as
the collectors, dealers, maybe scientists would profit all.
As you mentioned, Zelimir, those ACAPs with low shock level and weathering
degrees of W3,W3-4 are concerned, which often appeared within a shorter time
frame from desert paradise.


NWA 2656 Oakes. Bulletin: has 356g, broken from a larger mass of 7.5kg

NWA 2714 Birdsell/Oakes. 1656g
Bulletin: Paired with 2565, stems also according the owners from the same
7.5kg mass.

NWA 2699 owner unknown 1294g Bulletin: Paired with NWA 2656

NWA 2866 owner not mentioned 213g Bulletin: paired with NWA 2656

NWA 2871 Reed 3467g Bulletin: Paired with NWA 2656,
according Turecki, part of the 7.5kg mass.

NWA 2989 Hupe 77g believed by the owner to be paired with NWA 2656

NWA 2775 Reed&Turecki 222g nothing known, some say it's the same, some not.

NWA 4399 Ralew 210g Bulletin: May be paired with NWA 2627
There we are sure, that it's the same stuff as 2656/2714/2871.. and cause we
have some slices left, it should be no problem to get it fixed.

NWA 2627 Strope/Farmer 68g nothing known Jim/Mike help!


Hence so far, I guess we can say:

Officially paired are:
NWA 2656, NWA 2699, NWA 2714, NWA 2866, NWA 2871 type specimens of all at
NAU (Bunch,Wittke)

NWA 2989 is still listed as provisional, no big deal to check the pairing,
because type specimen is at Bunch, says data base. Owner says probably
paired.

NWA 2775 there also the type specimen is at NAU, so a pairing, if exist,
could be established there.
Here we can be happy, that Blaine owns a part, as Turecki went into hiding,
leaving many dealers unpaid.

NWA 2627 also at NAU, so...

NWA 4399 - there we a sure, the type specimens are in Berlin, but we will
take care, that it gets officialized.

Others:

NWA 1052 and 1054, do not belong to that group, they are much more fresh and
fine-grained.

NWA 2235 Fectay 64g is definitely to fresh with W1
-------

Finally left to be excluded or added to the big main pairing group, where I
don't know nothing about, respectively others will know more and better:

NWA 725 Fectay 3824g
NWA 1617 Oakes 21g (UWS)
NWA 3008 Burkhard 157g (Hamburg)
NWA 4236 Herkstroeter 24g (Hamburg)
NWA 4478 Hupe 444g (UWS)

Four of the holders are here on the list, so please help all together!

The data I took from the Bulletin database, the other information from the
discussion last year, so please, no choler necessary, we all only want to
pot Humpty together again and to clear the number mess. (Uhh if one thinks,
that the new Martians now around will get almost a dozen numbers...).
And, if the last not yet checked for a pairing will have been compared and
com-paired, then we will all hope, that it will be added to the Bulletins.

Cheers!
Martin


PS: Zelimir, we checked it back, with the chondrite, you must have mixed
something up. It's an L6, still under classification and not ready yet.

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Zelimir
Gabelica
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Oktober 2007 10:19
An: Martin Altmann; 'drtanuki'; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion

Hi Martin, all

In my archives I can read that my NWA 4399 (considered as Acapulcoite as
the many other you mention and acquired from Stefan Ralew) was paired to
NWA 2627.
So another new Lodranite ?
I hope this could be cleared up soon by Nom Com ?
My first feeling is that all these NWA numbers (and other) should be
re-examined to confirm their new classification as Lodranites.

I stay tuned....and am ready to open 3 bottles, should my 3 little samples
of NWA 2871 (2.1 g end section from Blaine), NWA 2714 (2.38 g full slice
from Stefan) and NWA 4399 (also 2.38 g full slice from Stefan) become
Lodranites.

Now let's go into more details regarding these 3 samples, all classified as
acapulcoites at the time (2006).
My labels are so far differentiating them in terms of "origin" and W
(weathering) or S (shock) numbers, which are indeed poor criteria.
Here is what I can read:

NWA 2871: S(low), W3, purchased (or found ?) in Morocco, 2003
NWA 2714: S(low), W3/4, found in "Sahara", 2004
NWA 4399: S(min), W(extensive), purchased (or found ?) in Algeria, 2003

To add to the confusion, I aso got from Stefan in 2006 a 32.16 g full
crusted slice of an "unclassified ordinary chondrite", brecciated, found in
"Sahara in 2006, S and W unspecified as it was (and still is ?) "under
study". Its tkw was 1050 g....

In a previous note, Stefan stated that this meteorite was "NWA 2714-likely
paired".

If this is so, then literature said that NWA 2714 (acapulcoite) was paired
with other acapulcoites NWA 1052 (22g), NWA 1054 (86 g), NWA (2656 + 2871)
(about 7.5 kg!), NWA 2699 (213 g) and NWA 2989 (77 g).
The combined tkw at that time was therefore over 10.858 kg.
However, Stefan suspected this new meteorite could be different and sent a
new "provisoonal at the time) NWA number: 4399!

Martin, look at these numbers. Some are mentioned in your post, some other
not....

Question: what is true from the above, regarding pairings ? Are there less
? more ?

This comforts me that, bacause of the relatively rare types that are
involved (acapulcoites, lodranites), all these meteorites should really be
studied separately again and reclassified, hopefully by the same group. If
so, it would probably take a looong time

Glad to read anyone's comments.
In between, beware of "wild classifications" and some potential
unscrupulous dealer's speculations in their near future offerings !

Zelimir



A 18:44 24/10/2007 +0200, Martin Altmann a ?crit :
>Nevertheless, that mail could have been send three times,
>cause it's delighting news for many more collectors,
>wasn't NWA 2871 that ACAP with especially many pairings?
>Can we carry them together her?
>
>NWA 2656
>NWA 2699
>NWA 2714
>NWA 2866
>NWA 2871
>NWA 2989
>NWA 4399
>Which else?
>
>So I guess quite a lot of collectors can open a bottle today!
>Best!
>Martin
>
>
>-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
>Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
drtanuki
>Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. Oktober 2007 18:29
>An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; dirk ross
>Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] AD NWA2871 reclassified now officially
>aLodranite --additional info for contact
>
>Sorry this message bounced.
>
> > Dear List,
> > Sorry, I forgot to add Blaine`s contact
> > information
> > when I posted his sales ad for the NWA2871 Lodranite
> > super special offer. Much has sold so do wait to
> > buy.
> >
> > His email works sometimes (when it gets checked):
> >
> > Blaine Reed <brmeteorites at yahoo.com>
> >
> > Best is his telephone/fax: 1-970-874-1487
> > (Colorado
> > time)
> >
> > Thank you! If you cannot reach him, please email me
> > for prices and availability. Thank you.
> > Dirk Ross...Tokyo
> >
> >
> > > drtanuki <drtanuki at yahoo.com> wrote: Hi List,
> > > If anyone missed out on buying NWA2871 you had
> > > better buy it now before the price is beyond your
> > > reach.
> > > Contact Blaine Reed or myself and place your
> > > orders
> > > for a once-in-a-lifetime chance to own a Lodranite
> > > at
> > > a reasonable price.
> > >
> > > Thank you. Dirk Ross...Tokyo
> > >
> > > www.MeteoritesJapan.com
> > >
> > > www.InsekiJapan.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > > protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
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Prof. Zelimir Gabelica
Universit? de Haute Alsace
ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC,
3, Rue A. Werner,
F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France
Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94
Fax: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15

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Received on Thu 25 Oct 2007 10:00:37 AM PDT