[meteorite-list] Dueling Keyboards....wasHeidelbergensis-Zhamanshin dates

From: mexicodoug <mexicodoug_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:54:08 -0600
Message-ID: <006801c82be1$68c66e90$4001a8c0_at_MICASA>

"a reader who doesn't like or does not agree with a book is morally and
legally entitled to represent himself to the author and demand the return of
his purchase price to be... a really scary idea"

Hey Sterling,

Why not? We live in a very litigious society... It's a free world!
Everyone has the right to complain. Happens every day on the list. Every
movie has a critic who says get your money back, don't see it. I don't know
of producers responding, "ok, if you donate our movie to the Hollywood Hall
of Fame" and send me a receipt...nothing moral or immoral about it, because
it ain't binding, and the axe is double bladed...

Nothing personal here, either. My objection was simply that the offer of
refund appeared as a genuine offer, but in fact was impossible and a request
that was odd considering the opinion expressed. More effective might have
been, "Go to heck."

In this case I suspect that the problem is that the original message just
wasn't understood well and someone should have helped the author out rather
than wait until the situation went out of control. On reflection, I think
the author did not offer the impossible refund in bad faith, it is too
complicated to ferret out what happened.

Chapter closed? Best wishes, and great Health,
Doug

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sterling K. Webb" <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Cc: <MexicoDoug at aol.com>; "Mr EMan" <mstreman53 at yahoo.com>; "Andreas Gren"
<info at meteoritenhaus.de>; "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Dueling
Keyboards....wasHeidelbergensis-Zhamanshin dates


> Dear Doug, and Keyboard Krowd,
>
> I have to tell you, Doug, that I find your very well-
> reasoned and logical defense that a reader who doesn't
> like or does not agree with a book is morally and legally
> entitled to represent himself to the author and demand
> the return of his purchase price to be... a really scary idea!
>
> I have this vision of a distraught William Shakespeare
> in the front room of his house in Stratford-upon-Avon,
> surrounded by boxes and boxes... He's complaining,
> "The basement is full; the attic is full; all the spare rooms...
> I got no place to put'em!"
>
> He waves at the mess, "It's mostly King Lear; nobody
> likes that ending. But I get all kinds of complaints. You
> wouldn't believe what they complain about; I had one jerk
> return Romeo and Juliet because the print was too small!
> Romeo and Juliet..."
>
> Dejectedly, he pours another shot of Bristol Rum,
> "And I'm going broke. Hey! I didn't make the full price
> of any book! What? You think the printer worked for
> nothing? The binder? You think that good linen paper is
> free? I tell ya... They're driving me ****ing crazy!"
>
> Yeah, that authorship is a Risky Business.
>
> The notion of approval or agreement as a requisite
> for actually paying for a book is slippery. Just how
> much do you have to like or agree with it for it to be
> worth the full price? If you think it's "pretty good"
> but you have a few quibbles, can you write the author
> and ask for 50 cents back? A quarter?
>
> Does it stop with books? If you disagree with your
> newspaper's editorial, can you withhold that day's cost
> from the subscription? Did you ever stop at the box
> office after a stinker of a movie and demand your money
> back? Maybe there's a reason they give broadcast TV
> away...
>
> I am also curious as to whether Andi has gone through
> ALL the books in his house and re-assured himself that he
> agrees absolutely, up to the value of the full purchase price,
> with each and every one, agrees enough to have not have
> any money coming back from their authors, or if he's only
> made that evaluation about this one book? 100% approval,
> 100% satisfaction with all the other books he's ever bought?
> Or, maybe he's sent many other books back to their authors
> with a demand for a refund? If so, what were the results?
>
> I'm thinking that they way out of this dilemma is to have
> a page-long universal product disclaimer to be included in
> every book. You know the kind that are usually found on
> every other product we buy except books! Something like
> (but longer than) this: "No warranty, express nor implied,
> is provided with this book. Batteries not included. Some
> assembly is required. Not all items provided are necessarily
> identical to those pictured; style, color, and content may
> vary. Some settling may occur. Discoloration is normal.
> If book is defective, do not return to point of purchase.
> All rights reserved. Made in China."
>
>
> Sterling K. Webb
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mexicodoug" <mexicodoug at aol.com>
> To: "Mr EMan" <mstreman53 at yahoo.com>; "Andreas Gren"
> <info at meteoritenhaus.de>; "'E.P. Grondine'" <epgrondine at yahoo.com>
> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Dueling
> Keyboards....wasHeidelbergensis-Zhamanshin dates
>
>
> First, let me commiserate with Steve #2 if this gets him down. "Man and
> Impact in the Americas" is related to meteorites, though, and is competing
> with Rocks from Space for shelf space, is advertised frequently here, has
> even been sold in the Inn Suites in Tucson, so a balanced look under the
> hood on the list isn't unreasonable!
>
> Hi Eman,
>
> I have three questions for you:
>
> "OK sure Ed is an author and a critical review of his book is fair--....
> over what looks like buyers remorse is not fair." (a moral line in the
> sand)
> (1) Were you there or are you intimately familiar with what was promised
> when the book was sold?
>
> "...a whiny criticizing of his work..." (a negative characterization)
> (2) Have you read the book from cover to cover, or, are you refering to
> the
> late Friday night "attack"? *
>
> "it was you who fired the first volley with your scathing attack" (an
> allegation)
> (3) Could you kindly review if a prior post provoked the "first" shot or
> confirm it really materialized from the ether?
>
> Comments:
> For about $25 (?) spent almost a year ago, I disagree with you: NO buyer's
> remorse at all! Furthermore, I find it hard to characterize an "attack"
> as
> you have. (Scathing - yes, Attack - no). When buying a meteorite, we
> have
> a certain set of standards. When reading a peer-reviewed article or book,
> we have other standards. When buying any monumental self-edited book, we
> are buying a pig in a poke (This means we are buying blindly and based on
> recommendations, for those not familiar with the expression, it is a
> general
> expression where you might get either a gem or a dud. I am not implying
> the
> book is either).
>
> We know the reader felt severely defrauded by the book, and we know the
> reader screwed up in some of the criticism and then was man enough to
> admit
> it. And the author screwed up in some parts of the book and tried to come
> clean, too.
>
> I have the book for almost one year, received as a gift from a kind
> friend.
> Unfortunately, I still haven't read it. If I do find some time to go
> through it, I would feel qualified to have a public opinion on the content
> in this: "duel". Your interpretation is strictly a moral argument on who
> is
> "right" and what the reader "should" do, have you noticed? :-) I suggest
> we let this one run its course by itself. The reader already moved on and
> had no wish to kiss the author. Have you ever been to Germany? OK, then
> you might have seen some fine distinctions between how the the two
> cultures
> hock their wares?
>
> *Ironic, as you have had berserker responses on ocassion, too, after being
> fed up by other listees whose posts annoy you. In this case, as scalding
> as
> the opinion may seem, nowhere do I see where the reader was not
> restricting
> his opinions to the merchandise. Unfortunately, in an emotional lapse of
> judgement, the author was not so careful. But no moral crusader came
> forth
> to explain to the author the meaning of the reader's post. For example,
> he
> offered a refund provided the book be donated to a library, yet it was
> clear
> to me the first 15 pages (30 sides) had been removed from the book for
> other
> uses...and a donation to a library furthermore would be an implicit
> approval
> of the book - which clearly was not acceptable to the reader. (Yes:
> Please
> donate the Boggy Sogbottom meteorite to the National Museum meteorite
> collection and then I will refund your money if you give me the donation
> receipt). We are talking about a library in Hamburg, not an Banana
> Republic
> tax write-off. I respect the difference of both duelers.
>
> Best wishes, and Good health,
> Doug
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mr EMan" <mstreman53 at yahoo.com>
> To: "Andreas Gren" <info at meteoritenhaus.de>; "'E.P. Grondine'"
> <epgrondine at yahoo.com>
> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 6:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Dueling Keyboards
> ....wasHeidelbergensis-Zhamanshin dates
>
>
>> Well... Well.... My take... This looks like a duel
>>
>> So "duelly" speaking, Andi, it was you who fired the first volley with
>> your scathing attack with what you later renounced as your mistakes.
>> Were this a duel you fired into Ed's back before even throwing down the
>> glove.
>>
>> Ed, you've already been chastised for your blasphemy and offending the
>> creationists. Lucky for you they weren't the kind of zealots that put
>> out the fatwa on Simon Rustie. The only consolation is your stoning
>> would have been with sky rocks.
>>
>> You've exchanged volleys now 5 or 6 times and now you've gone back to
>> the swords since you've run out of ammunition. The only damage you can
>> wreck upon each other is the indignity of insult--Like the rest of us
>> really care other than the entertainment value of watching zingers whiz
>> by our heads and the puffing and huffing after each go-round.
>>
>>
>> OK sure Ed is an author and a critical review of his book is fair--a
>> whiny criticizing of his work over what looks like buyers remorse is
>> not fair. Frankly, it has become a personal attack and the gentleman in
>> you should either kiss and make up or choose other weapons so long as
>> it is taken to the meteorite noise list which is set up to handle
>> duels.
>>
>> Gentlemen, I(We) Thank You for your attention in this matter.
>>
>> Eman
>>
>>
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>
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Received on Tue 20 Nov 2007 08:54:08 PM PST