[meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater

From: mexicodoug <mexicodoug_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:16:34 -0600
Message-ID: <005301c82bdc$29ecbf80$4001a8c0_at_MICASA>

Jerry wrote:
"Would the Noise material contain Ni? If that were the case a simple test
for Ni might be a step toward separatng vast amounts of noise from more
potentially meteoric stuff."

Hi Jerry,

Maybe theoretically.

Keeping in mind that Bessey specs would be reasonably bigger than most of
these - I think you have an assumption built into your question: That
micrometeorites are similar compositionally to most of the meteorites we get
our hands on. I am not sure that this is the case, or even for that matter
that a magnet is picking up the authentic micrometeorites. From what I've
read, which is very, very minimal, many "analyzed" micrometeorites are most
similar to carbonaceous chondrites and most specifically CI or CM
chondrites (and this builds part of the case to link them to comets). The
nickel content in these tiny particles would be around 1% or even less. If
anything, then, I would think the best bet would be to run a "refrigerator"
magnet over gutter recovered material and throw out anything that actually
stuck to it. Then, use a super neodymium magnet and see which specs stick
to it (and, unfortunately magnetizing what little metal is in it), and keep
those as candidates and throw the rest away including the particles from the
Moon. On the other hand, maybe some metal particles are concentrated
residue from ablation, but those would be so altered, that a trace of
Iridium might be there...I'd be interested in looking for traces of amino
acids, too, for example.

How you would sort the tiny sub-mg particle containing a not-uniformly
distributed 3 micrograms of nickel without being an ace microprobeist going
nuts on a beachful of grains, sounds difficult to me. And what I suggest,
too, also relies on assumptions of composition which is circular logic. The
stuff collected from blocks of old ice or other natural traps is pristine,
though, and could serve as somewhat of a control. The trouble with it
though, is that it is hard to know if it is representative of what is
accumulating today.

I am not sure an ocassional event like Tunguska, for example, wouldn't
provide most of the particles, or say the year following Sikhote, when
looking at these reserviors. On the other hand, there is no reason the
majority of micrometeorites would be the same as meteorites in our
collections, because as Larry hazarded a guess, they are probably cometary
in origin, perhaps like some of the "sparks" seen at the end of the Leonids'
trails, and there is no warranty that we have anything exactly like them in
our collections. (Or, to Francis' line of thinking, reflect major events of
Lunar dust kicked up at some point from a major cratering event there like
the one reputed to have happened in the 1100's.)

Everything seems to have problems, so this sounds to me like it is a good
case for a lot of grunt work and a very huge experimental design covering
sampling techniques, with special interest toward developing data in say,
the week following major meteor showers. Maybe NASA and collaborating
reseachers have this covered from planes and balloons, but I bet even their
sampling techniques bias the results knowingly and in ways not even
recognized by them?

Whoever is analyzing the Stardust samples (Would that happen to be Brownlee?
:-) ), and what instruments and techniques are being used, would probably
laugh at this, but those're the thoughts from the peanut gallery.

Best wishes and Great Health,
Doug


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry" <grf2 at verizon.net>
To: "mexicodoug" <mexicodoug at aol.com>; "Francis Graham"
<francisgraham at rocketmail.com>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater


> Doug, Francis, Chris and List,
> Some might remember my post on this subject a year or so ago.
> I addressed the possibility of actually getting real micrometeorites using
> similar techniques [magnets]
> I referred to a leading Astronomy popularizer, Jack Horkhimer. whose PBS
> late night shows always ended with the phrase " and remember Keep Looking
> Up".
> At the time I was rudely awakened to reality by the List, and introduced
> to "Noise"
> But Francis, the joy of the experience for me and my school kids was real
> and has remained vivid today. So the persuit is enough to provide lasting
> entusiasm and lifelong interest in the subject.
> I have a question.
> Would the Noise material contain Ni?
> If the pollutants are from manufacturing in say China [not much in the USA
> anymore], would the processing of the material reduce the metal to Fe?
> If that were the case a simple test for Ni might be a step toward
> separatng vast amounts of noise from more potentially meteoric stuff.
> Jerry Flaherty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mexicodoug" <mexicodoug at aol.com>
> To: "Francis Graham" <francisgraham at rocketmail.com>;
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 1:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
>
>
>> Hello Francis, Chris, Larry and other hip, enthusiastic educators or
>> Listees,
>>
>> Thanks again for the interesting subject, and also to Chris who got a
>> late but great reply in there...
>>
>> Francis' has hit upon a subject on classroom study of the micrometeorite
>> question is really a way to get students close and personal with
>> meteorites in the most delightful way - a memorable educational
>> experience. I know everyone has special needs for their particular
>> science class curriculum, but I wanted to add a P.S. with some links just
>> suggesting you take a look at what has been done by Lepidopterists to
>> stimulate scientific minds in North America in their field. The study of
>> butterflies, skippers and moths is really not a popular subject in
>> schools; Unfortunately, even keeping hard-core scientific groups related
>> to it alive is sometimes a challenge. In a stark contrast, The Monarch
>> Watch Program, between Canada, the U.S., and Mexico has proved to be an
>> engine for young minds and is popular year after year; a very memorable
>> experience for aspiring student biologists. Not to mention the
>> appreciation and culture it leaves all participants for the subject
>> matter.
>>
>> I'm very biased in applying this to your "problem" (in a scientific
>> sense, of course) since my other love is as an amateur enthusiast of
>> Lepidopterology, and have had personal contact with the leaders, but have
>> no part in organizing, this remarkable success. Scientists alone needed
>> help if they could ever draw any conclusions, and this was needed at a
>> local level. Who would have thought 15 years later the program is
>> stronger than ever, self-funded and still making news even in the local
>> papers in Mexico, with young scientist delighting in the opportunity to
>> be essential contributers to science and develop their scientific
>> curiosity in biology by direct participation and contact with the natural
>> sciences? Two thousand educational organizations are involved and it is
>> estimated that 100,000 students annually have the joy of participation,
>> doing science, and having exciting field expeditions.
>>
>> The thought that bulk analyses could be made of hypothesized meteoritic
>> materials sampled over greatly varying geography but standard protocol
>> seems to put statistics in our favor of separating the noise from the
>> micrometeorites that form a portion of the fallout.
>>
>> OK, sorry for maybe going overboard with a second post - here are some
>> pertinent links you are cordially invited to click:
>>
>> The classic: http://www.monarchwatch.org/tagmig/tag.htm
>> More really interesting stuff IMO:
>> http://www.monarchwatch.org/class/studproj/vector.htm
>> http://www.monarchwatch.org/class/studproj/hiso.htm
>> http://www.monarchwatch.org/class/studproj/mass.htm
>>
>> Best wishes and Great Health,
>> Doug
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Francis Graham" <francisgraham at rocketmail.com>
>> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:42 AM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
>>
>>
>>> Dear Doug, Larry and List,
>>> Thanks for the response from you both and from Sr
>>> Gallo in Venezuela! Upon further reflection, I am not
>>> sure how much information can be gained from
>>> micrometeorite lunar dust grains...the problem is that
>>> you have only one or two mineral grains...maybe three.
>>> But what you lack in macroscopic petrological context,
>>> you might gain in microscopic studies involving
>>> isotopes, studies of polymorphic forms, and odd
>>> minerals (e.g. Hapkeite) etc.
>>> But then there is the whole problem of
>>> identification of lunar micrometeorites, not an easy
>>> one to solve, especially, as Larry says (and I agree)
>>> they are likely to be rare.
>>> Hmmmm. I like your suggestion that this would be an
>>> interesting project to critically examine, in
>>> conjunction with an educational project.
>>>
>>> Francis Graham
>>>
>>>
>>> --- mexicodoug <mexicodoug at aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Francis,
>>>>
>>>> I was thinking exactly the same angle already posted
>>>> by Larry, so let me
>>>> just comment on your question:
>>>>
>>>> "And at what size level does a meteorite cease to be
>>>> of interest?"
>>>>
>>>> by offering the opinion:
>>>> At the level it ceases to contain any information
>>>> attributable to
>>>> meteoroids, meteorites or their parent bodies.
>>>> Since this will change with
>>>> time and technology, the question may be time and
>>>> resource dependent.
>>>> However, your inquiry about whether any of these
>>>> particles have been
>>>> analyzed (or imo, capable of being analyzed at
>>>> present), stands.
>>>>
>>>> It would seem to me, that a very good project for
>>>> schools would be to
>>>> organize a collection protocol for educators in the
>>>> style of the superb
>>>> International Monarch Butterfly tagging program (or
>>>> also like SETI on home
>>>> computers), to collect large amounts of this
>>>> material, set up a factorial
>>>> experimental design to test certain hypothesis and
>>>> bulk sample differences,
>>>> by appropriately submitting these for testing.
>>>>
>>>> I would imagine that this is an experiment that
>>>> neither the ESA nor NASA
>>>> have the resources nor mandate to do, yet could lead
>>>> to profound insight on
>>>> the nature of cometary particles on Earth and make a
>>>> very good contribution
>>>> to science by enthusiastic young scientsits to be.
>>>> Or I darkly suspect,
>>>> more likely an application of the scientific method
>>>> to disprove a popularly
>>>> held theory theory regarding most of the materials
>>>> recovered in this way -
>>>> either way, a great exercise for teaching meteorites
>>>> and science in general
>>>> with a problem, methodology, and a participative
>>>> attitude.
>>>>
>>>> Surely there is some work on this out there, but
>>>> sample size and scope
>>>> restrictions make this an ideal educator's project
>>>> looking only for someone
>>>> like you to organize. Just need a partner in the
>>>> scientific community
>>>> willing to lead in the intrumental analyses and
>>>> sample preparation.
>>>>
>>>> Best Wishes and Good Health,
>>>> Doug
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: <lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu>
>>>> To: "Francis Graham" <francisgraham at rocketmail.com>
>>>> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:49 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Hello Francis:
>>>> >
>>>> > I do not pretend to be an expert on this subject,
>>>> but the simple answer to
>>>> > at least oneof your questions is that there is no
>>>> indication that any of
>>>> > the micrometeorites (and thus what you might get
>>>> in rainwater) is
>>>> > planetary or lunar. The ones collected in the
>>>> upper atmosphere are either
>>>> > from asteroids or comets. It may be that some very
>>>> small percentage is
>>>> > planetary/lunar, but these might be so rare as to
>>>> be lost in the noise.
>>>> >
>>>> > Larry Lebofsky
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, November 20, 2007 7:31 am, Francis Graham
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> Dear List
>>>> >> I have a question which has been vexing me for
>>>> some
>>>> >> years. I was introduced to a method of collection
>>>> of
>>>> >> micrometeorites by Larry Megahan some years ago,
>>>> which consisted of
>>>> >> collecting rainwater and then wrapping a powerful
>>>> rare Earth magnet in
>>>> >> Saran (TM)wrap. Placing
>>>> >> the Saran wrap on a glass plate, and examining it
>>>> under the microscope,
>>>> >> one
>>>> >> could see many ferromagnetic particles. Some were
>>>> rounded and ablated and
>>>> >> it was a strong guess that these were
>>>> micrometeorites. I have had some
>>>> >> students try this project and indeed some of the
>>>> particles are
>>>> >> microspheroids of ablated iron, similar to so
>>>> called "Brownlee particles"
>>>> >> colected in the stratosphere. But I have reason
>>>> to be suspicious,
>>>> >> especially if the collection is near a former
>>>> industrial or mining site.
>>>> >> MY
>>>> >> QUESTION IS, has this method, widely circulated
>>>> >> in presecondary teaching circles, ever been
>>>> critically evaluated by
>>>> >> electron microprobe analysis, X-Ray fluorescence
>>>> or some such? And at
>>>> >> what
>>>> >> size level does a meteorite cease to be of
>>>> interest? It would naively
>>>> >> seem,
>>>> >> that although a very very very tiny percentage of
>>>> meteorites are lunars
>>>> >> or
>>>> >> Martians, if a way to rapidly identify
>>>> micrometeorites
>>>> >> can be done, a lot more information on Mars and
>>>> the Moon could be
>>>> >> obtained,
>>>> >> simply because there are so many micrometeorites.
>>>> This would include
>>>> >> collection in the stratosphere as Brownlee did,
>>>> maybe piggybacked on
>>>> >> surveillance aircraft. But one question at a
>>>> time.
>>>> >> Francis Graham
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________________
>>>> >> ___________
>>>> >> Be a better pen pal.
>>>> >> Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See
>>>> how.
>>>> >> http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
>>>> >> ______________________________________________
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>>>> >>
>>>>
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ______________________________________________
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>>>> >
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Received on Tue 20 Nov 2007 08:16:34 PM PST